Author Topic: Commissioning Certificates  (Read 6121 times)

Offline skelffie

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Commissioning Certificates
« on: June 12, 2007, 06:53:45 PM »
We specialise in fire alarm installation but we have recently encountered problems from another company regarding our commissioning certificates.   I have done my BFPSA training courses and worked for a manufacturerer for 13 years.

They say that because the fire alarm certificate is not issued by the manufacturer or a representative for the manufacturer it is not a legal certificate because the system has not been commissioned according to the manufacturers recommendations.

I have never enocountered this before.  Can you please clarify this situation?

King Regards

Peter

Graeme

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Commissioning Certificates
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2007, 09:48:19 PM »
total nonsense

look at the back of BS5839-1 annexe G.3.

It's a model certificate to replicate for your customers.

It has a tick box for all equipment working correctly etc.

Offline Allen Higginson

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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2007, 12:04:57 AM »
quel beaucoup de merde!!!!

Offline skelffie

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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2007, 08:08:17 AM »
I thought it was strange because I have never heard of it before.

Many thanks for your quick response.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2007, 09:46:32 AM »
The cetificates aren't "legal" anyway - theres a lot of it about.

Offline Thebeardedyorkshireman

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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2007, 11:24:20 AM »
Be careful before you jump to conclusions.  You may be in a contractual situation.If the wording on the technical specification which forms part of the contract calls for commissioning by the manufacturer or his agents then you may be in contractual default by failing to provide documentary evidence of this. May I suggest that you obtain a copy of the contract and read it carefully as it should set out all the requirements. The fact that you are technically competent to issue a certificate may be irrelevant. Sorry
Dave

Offline skelffie

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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 12:24:05 PM »
I am aware that if the job spec says the manufacturer or agent states they should commission it then they need to.  The problem also arises on small modifications of systems eg. installing an input/output device when there is no spec provided.

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 12:46:45 PM »
As things stand at present any competent person can generally issue any of the certificates recommended by BS (but with consideration to the contractural implications highlighted by TBY where appropriate).

The model commissioning certificate contained within BS is copyright and they could stop anyone from using an absolut copy of it if they so wished. However as long as your own certificate includes all the elements contained within the BS model then it will contain everything recommended by BS and could be considered to be 'compliant'. Therefore you just change the layout around a bit on your own certificate and it is no longer an absolute copy!

Graeme

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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 06:03:54 PM »
Quote from: skelffie
I am aware that if the job spec says the manufacturer or agent states they should commission it then they need to.  The problem also arises on small modifications of systems eg. installing an input/output device when there is no spec provided.
If the control panel is such that the manufacturer or an agent needs to commission then i  then there could be a problem if it's not done by a authorised person but if it's a panel that is open to all then i can't see why it's "not Legal". Sounds like sour grapes if the open type is the case.

You should be a an agent of the panel if it requires you to do so,that way you will have done all the training etc required to be competant on the panel.

Offline Ark Angel

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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 07:56:16 PM »
I believe B.S.  states the word competent and it says that a way of measuring competance is by use of 3rd party accreditiation schemes such as the BAFE SP203 scheme.

If the panel is of an open protocol variety then the competance issue comes into play.
The World Favours the Brave

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 09:34:13 PM »
Quote from: Ark Angel
I believe B.S.  states the word competent and it says that a way of measuring competance is by use of 3rd party accreditiation schemes such as the BAFE SP203 scheme.

If the panel is of an open protocol variety then the competance issue comes into play.
Ark Angel, do you mean closed protocol?

Actually, it doesn't matter if a panel operates with an open or closed protocol (operating language). The protocol is provided by the device manufacturer who may or may not also manufacture control panels. The problems come with the configuration (programme) software of the control panel. If you don't understand how it works for any particular panel then you might not be considered competent to work on that control panel.

Competency is a matter of degree and surely if you make an error with something then you might  be considered as  incompetent, even with all the training and experience in the world!. (if you have had training and experience of something but make a minor error then you might get away with being competent but making an honest mistake).

Also competency obviously doesn't only apply to programmable control panels.

Finally, it is worth remembering that many programmable control panels are supllied by the manufacturer with a default BS compliant programme and if you don't need to reprogramme anything then you don't need to know how the programming works!