Latest on Fire safety as a protected means of escape

[smudger29]

Hi all,

I'm close to completeing a conversion on a bungalow - some time ago my builder mentioned that I would need to upgrade the doors to fire doors on the first floor. I took this matter up with my architect who assured me I didn't as the drawings had been signed off by building control without them and that the usual loft conversion issues didn't apply here as it wasn't a second storey 'loft conversion'. I spoke with the buiding controll guy directly and it seems 20 min firedoors were suggested as an alternative to lowering incorrectly built dorma windowa -  six in fact with cill height around 50mm higher than specified on the drawing - a little detail my builder neglected to pass on!  

The bungalow was built in 1928 and has common 34mm thick  pine 3 + 1 panel doors downstairs - at the time the buiding work started I purchased some matching pine panel doors to  match upstair which untill last week I was told would bave to be scrapped. Building control told my builder that it was now possible to upgrade the doors I've bought but hasn't supplied spec's etc. I've done a little research and it seems I can do this by adding fire retardant material laminate to panels which which are around 8mm thick and painting the whole face of the door side that need protecting  with a fire resisting coating which can be over painted.

can somebody tell me if this is all that is required - there rules relating to Door closers and fire/smoke strips in the door closures seem to change regularly - what is the current requirement?

Clearly the builder made a mistake with the cill heights and I'll be discussing the cost of this door  upgrade with him but need to know exactly what we need to do to comply.

Thanks for the advice

[John Dragon]

http://www.envirograf.com/

They do a paint on system that can offer a certificated solution.

[wee brian]

Just put a fixed step next to the window.

[smudger29]

Thanks, Builder suggested step in front of window - building inspector said no as they get removed afterwards.

Thanks for the link to the coatings company - I've looked into this - trouble is it's expensive stuff :-)

Cheers for the advice

[wee brian]

http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/buildingregulations/determinationsandappeals/appealsbysubject/bmeans/b1ref453176/

paragraphs 9 & 14 show this to the building inspector.

[smudger29]

right, steps are out of the question now as flooring is down - I either have to fit firedoors or upgrade the 34mm doors with 6mm panels that I have - does anyone know what BD or fire door standard I'm supposed to comply with - my building inspector seems to enjoy saying no to every solution provided but won't actually tell me what he wants other than to board out the inside of my panelled doors with 6mm fire proof board - I suggested the Envirograph product and despite this system having been around since it was first tested in '94 he say's it is not suitable as if damaged in five years time he can't gaurantee I will repair the door - same argument originally when he said we can't fit steps cos I could take them out after he signs off.

[smudger29]

sorry that was ment to read BS (British Standard) or Firedoor regulation not BD

[kurnal]

Sounds like you need an approved building inspector rather than your current one. Trouble is its difficult to switch halfway through a job.

Your BCO is WRONG if he turns down a solution involving tried and tested intumescent technology.

There is no problem whatsoever in using either Wee Brians suggestion of a fixed step or a proprietory upgrade provided the system is tested to BS476 and you follow the instructions. Intumescent veneer, paper varnish or paints  are all fine on the right door with the correct application. See Sealmaster, Envirograph, English Heritage websites.

I would ask him to put the reasons for rejecting your proposed solution in writing and then write a letter of complaint to his boss. If that draws a blank then send it to one of the big companies- they may be interested in taking it on for you.

[smudger29]

Many thanks guess I'll make sure this is the only issue relating to sign off before I ruffle feathers,

Just so I'm clear - my drawings were passed by building regs last year - work began middle of March this year - problem manifested in July when windows were already installed so no change of changing cil height.

Drawing calls for upstairs and down stairs mains powered interlinked fire alarms to be fitted but that is all on the fire regs.

What am I required by law to do right now in order to comply with fire regulations my building inpector clearely doesn't know so is sacking every suggestion I've made so far for some reason

My understanding is that I must  fit new or upgrade my current doors to withstand a fire for 20 mins at the bare minumum in order to give time for alarms to sound and everybody to get out of the front door as the wondows are too high to exit from in an emergency.

Currently there is no need to upgrade to door closers and also now there is no insistance for intumicent strips to be added either.

Who ultimately is the authority on this despite being delighted at your clarification of a complex subject - I don't expect arguing the Kurnel on this forum gave me advice will be sufficient to get them to take notice - or  will it?

[Mr. P]

Signing off a build is the same as signing a car mot. It is only good for the time of insoection.  In build cases, the ABI should oly be looking at what was required and signed off as acceptable on the plans.  Some get a bit twitchy when things change during construction/alteration due to unforseens. Have you asked directly "What do you want?" ? Something 5 years down the line is then part of risk management to maintain all the original requiremnents ie your doors.  Call your local build control or back to your architect and ask if they have acceptable solutions to problem that you can agree on.

[Fishy]

Many thanks guess I'll make sure this is the only issue relating to sign off before I ruffle feathers,

Just so I'm clear - my drawings were passed by building regs last year - work began middle of March this year - problem manifested in July when windows were already installed so no change of changing cil height.

Drawing calls for upstairs and down stairs mains powered interlinked fire alarms to be fitted but that is all on the fire regs.

What am I required by law to do right now in order to comply with fire regulations my building inpector clearely doesn't know so is sacking every suggestion I've made so far for some reason

My understanding is that I must  fit new or upgrade my current doors to withstand a fire for 20 mins at the bare minumum in order to give time for alarms to sound and everybody to get out of the front door as the wondows are too high to exit from in an emergency.

Currently there is no need to upgrade to door closers and also now there is no insistance for intumicent strips to be added either.

Who ultimately is the authority on this despite being delighted at your clarification of a complex subject - I don't expect arguing the Kurnel on this forum gave me advice will be sufficient to get them to take notice - or  will it?

The Secretary of State:

www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/4000000001390.html

You can apply for a determination if you feel they're overstepping their authority.

I'd have to say that my personal opinion is that I do not believe that it is acceptable for them to refuse a solution that is technically OK just because they suspect it might be removed/disabled at a later date.