Fire Rating High Risk Bathrooms

[PhilB]

Detector or not, if a fire occurs I would much rather have to walk past a fire resisting door  and partition than one made of matchboarding.

It does depend of course at what stage of fire development you are walking past the door.

In the early stages if you are awake you may hear or smell signs of a developing fire. A door made of matchwood will infact give you earlier warning than a fire door.

If, however, you are in a care home or hotel, asleep and/or under the influence of drugs or alcohol you may not awaken until the fire is fully developed and breeched the 30 minutes fire resistance and taken out your escape route. In that case a fire door without a detector may serve little purpose.

[kurnal]

Yes Phil of course I cant disagree with what you say and all such sleeping risks will have detection to L2 as a minimum these days I would hope.

But looking at tenability in a corridor as you walk past this notional fire, the unprotected cupboard will reduce tenability almost immediately giving you probably 2 minutes to evacuate where as the fire resisting construction should maintain tenability for up to30 minutes before failing- and the failure will almost certain be gradual rather than catastrophic.  The probability of the fire being discovered during this time and the chances of escape are far greater if you have a 30 minute safety margin.

[AFD]

Can I just point out that '30 minutes fire resistance' particularly in regards to doors is a test unit, it does not guarantee 30 minutes to escape, I know that fires have been held by none fire rated standard doors but it all depends on the conditions at the time ie. fire load, ventilation, fit etc etc.  But people keep making the statement  that you have 30 minutes to escape (or wait for the fire service !!! ) If you have seen a door tested it is installed to the n'th degree with feeler gauges and men in white coats !!!  Not as happens on the average building site where the apprentice hangs the doors with whatever number and type of screws he has in his bag on a friday afternoon and then the shrinkage and warpage sets in and the gaps appear.  To keep stating 30 minutes to escape breeds complacency, recent events have shown what can happen in 30 minutes.

[Graeme]

i was asked a few years ago to install a hd in a bathroom as it had a dodgy old heater in it.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Motorised baths do pose a significant risk and should be considered in the fire risk assessment.

I would suggest at the very least AFD (in the form of carbon monoxide detector or RoR heat detector as a minimum.)

This is a very important issue - and on which isn't always given the correct attention.

I always insist of AFD in bathrooms with electrical hoists / motorised baths because a represents a risk.

The risk of a fire occuring is low, but if it does occur the potential for harm is very very high - plastic baths give off nasty products of combustion as anyone who has attended fires in bathrooms will know !

So not a silly question in the slightest Firewolf, and as someone else mentioned I am a little bit worried so many people belittled you for asking the question it would only take on bath to go up and the MOE could be severely affected if not dealt with correctly.

Although not directly involved in the inspection of Res Care (we have a dedicated officer) I do know that in HR bathrooms he specifies smoke detection - steam shouldn’t be an issue due to water temp restrictors that are fitted to taps.

Also, applying common sense and logic when the bathroom is in use and at its highest risk the door is shut for privacy so why make it FR.

[nearlythere]

I think that it would help if non F&RS bods would accept that fires do actually happen and people do actually die because of them.

[PhilB]

Don't agree there Dave, its not when the bathroom is occupied that there is the greatest risk as any fire will be noticed in the early stages. When the room is empty but still full of electrical gadgets and fuel is the time that concerns me.

[Dinnertime Dave]

My main point Phil is that the electrical items are most likely to be under load and more prone to fault/fire when someone is in the room. When the room is empty and the equipment is isolated the risk of fire should be minimal. Probably no more than a non assisted bathroom which presumably would not have detection.

Do these lowering devices cause many fires? and would anybody suggest a metal bath to reduce fuel levels?

[PhilB]

Dunno Dave let's see what the guide says!!!!! Come on code huggers what's the answer?


I think this discussion demonstrates points made in other threads that it's all about assessing the risk and then applying common sense and professional judgement.

Good point that a metal bath would reduce the fuel, bit cold on the backside though! I think most of us have been to fires when electrical equipment was underload in an empty room, or faulty and so ignited.

[nearlythere]

The answer Phil is right in front of you in your codes. You don't need fire doors on a wc or bathroom unless it contains a fire risk.
The question you and me have to ask ourselves is, is the electrical equipment contained therein a fire risk?
Can electrical equipment go on fire? Have we forgotten Uddingston, Lanarkshire 2004 when 14 people lost their lives because of faulty electrical equipment?

Fire door. At the end of the day it could turn out to be a very cost effective door.

[PhilB]

The answer Phil is right in front of you in your codes. You don't need fire doors on a wc or bathroom unless it contains a fire risk.
The question you and me have to ask ourselves is, is the electrical equipment contained therein a fire risk?
Can electrical equipment go on fire?.

Bit more to it than that Nearlythere.

Yes we need to consider if the electrical equipment is an ignition risk......I would suggest it always is,........... if ignition occurs what fuels are available?

Then we need to take into account room geometry, wall, floor and ceiling linings, ventilation, ceiling height, we can then determine likely rate of development.

Then I suggest we look at who may be in the building at the time, asleep, awake, infirm, drugged, drunk etc.

What means of raising the alarm is in the low risk room, that shouldn't have a fire anyway? What assistance is available to initiate an effective evacuation?

Or alternatively we could read the guide and say we dont need fire doors on wcs or bathrooms and laugh at people like Firewolf who asked the sensible question at the beginning of this post.

Its so easy this fire safety mullarky!

[nearlythere]

The answer Phil is right in front of you in your codes. You don't need fire doors on a wc or bathroom unless it contains a fire risk.
The question you and me have to ask ourselves is, is the electrical equipment contained therein a fire risk?
Can electrical equipment go on fire?.

Bit more to it than that Nearlythere.

Yes we need to consider if the electrical equipment is an ignition risk......I would suggest it always is,........... if ignition occurs what fuels are available?

Then we need to take into account room geometry, wall, floor and ceiling linings, ventilation, ceiling height, we can then determine likely rate of development.

Then I suggest we look at who may be in the building at the time, asleep, awake, infirm, drugged, drunk etc.

What means of raising the alarm is in the low risk room, that shouldn't have a fire anyway? What assistance is available to initiate an effective evacuation?

Or alternatively we could read the guide and say we dont need fire doors on wcs or bathrooms and laugh at people like Firewolf who asked the sensible question at the beginning of this post.

Its so easy this fire safety mullarky!

Phil

The codes do not say that there should never be a fire door on a WC or bathroom.

[AM]

I think that it would help if non F&RS bods would accept that fires do actually happen and people do actually die because of them.

...and FSO's stop beleiving that everyone else but them want people to burn in their beds.