Pub/hotel fire alarm system category question

[GeoffR]

Gentlemen. I would welcome your sage advice on the following "category" question. A contractor has been approached by his client who owns a pub/hotel with 9 bedrooms. The pub area has a pre-existing manual system which presumably meets licensing conditions, but does not cover the sleeping accomodation. The Client is waving a piece of nondescript scrap of paper on which someone has scribbled (and I quote) "Fire Alarm LD2 Grade A for accomodation up to 9 bedrooms or 200 sq m." The contractor is dubious about the adequacy of the advice and system, having no wish to be associated with an inappropriate system. My question is how can the owner's "advisor" recommend a system category which only appears in BS 5839-6 which is only scoped for dwellings? I believe that these premises should have a system based upon BS 5839-1, Cat. L2/M. I will appreciate all your comments on this. Thanks. Geoff.

[kurnal]

You are right. A Part 1 system should be installed. But in practical terms the differences between a top level  grade A part 6 system and a part 1 system are  really rather blurred at the edges.  But because this is a commercial premises with a mix of uses the system should be designed, installed and maintained in accordance with BS5839 part 1, system category M/L2.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Firstly the correct system in this case is a BS5839: Pt 1 Category M/L2 and that what I would expect to see as an inspecting officer.

However, lets say that as an inspecting officer I inspected (Sorry, carried out an audit) of the above premises and found that the occupier had recognised via his FRA that the fire warning system was inadequate. He had downloaded the sleeping guide and put a Part 6 system in to Grade A LD2. (Reading the guide he could have put in a Grade D) He may have thought small B&B less than 200m2 – that me! That’s what the guide says.

Would any inspecting officer ask him to rip it out?

Also, let’s say that he recognised via his FRA that the escape lighting was inadequate. The same guide makes reference to hand held torches for use by STAFF. I`ve lost count of the number of bedrooms in small B&B that I have been in that have rechargeable torches – with an expectation for guests to use them.

My point really is that it is easy for the fire safety professional to use their skills and experience to come up with the right answer but, were now asking untrained people to come up with acceptable solutions to what are in some cases complex problems. You’ve only got to read the threads on here to see different interpretations and solutions to the same problem.

[Wiz]

Guys,
Just a minor thing really regarding category designations that I personally feel is quite important.

In a BS5839 part 1 2002 category description for a L1, L2, L3 & L4 system it is taken that they satisfy the recommendations for an M system also.

Therefore, you don't need to describe, for example an L3 system as an L3/M.

In fact, by continually describing an L3 system as an L3/M may very well cause confusion whereby someone who didn't understand the Standards might suddenly assume that seeing a Category description of just L3 on a new job meant that it didn't need to satisfy the M recommendations as well.

So stop it now!

Also where the Category designation should also include the recommendations for M systems it should be described as, for example, P2/M and not M/P2.

Professor Kurnal; You definitely should know better, so I am reporting you to Matron! (no rice pudding for you tonight!)

[Dinnertime Dave]

Thankyou Wiz, Section 5.2(e) in fact, my apologies. It won`t happen again.

[kurnal]

Dr Wiz is a wise old sage and I would not seek to duel with him over fire alarm designations. But pinching my rice pudding is a step too far. I am not averse to a little flagellation.

I agree over L1,2,3,4. but what about M/L5 where detection has been included to address a specific life safety issue?
In any case you have blown it with matron she wont listen to you any more since you pinched the batteries out of her vibrator for your LD3 smoke alarm system?

[Dinnertime Dave]

WIZ, will you allow me to answer Kurnal`s question?

Section 5.2 (f) says where recommendations are for a P1, P2 or L5 you describe the category as P1/M, P2/M or L5/M

Answer complete I await Wiz to mark my submission.  

Every day I try to get better and better

[Wiz]

Apolgies accepted Dinnertime Dave. But don't let your little transgression put you off using the home's dining room dial-up internet connection again in the future. We all reside in this home because of our varying degrees of bewilderment. However there are plans for some to escape, if only we could work out how.

Professor Kurnal, My explanation did not list every variation of the category designations that are o.k to be used in a 'double-barrelled' configuration because I was only listing the ones that definitely shouldn't be. Obviously there can be a L5/M because L5 is the only Life category that doesn't include M recommendations as standard.

There are obviously other 'double-barrelled' designations such as L2/P2 etc. as well.

My point is that we shouldn't include M whenever it is not needed, so as to avoid any confusion.

But what I really want to know has anyone ever seen the very rare and elusive 'triple' such as L5/P2/M !!!!!!!!

Also for your information, I am now madly in love with Matron, and that is why I took her batteries. I will be just as good as any 'C cell operated aid' as soon as I can get the GP to pescribe me some Viagra and I can find a way to connect myself into the mains!

[Wiz]

Dinnertime Dave you uploaded before I had fully completed my own contribution  (Matron will be upset with such premature ejaculations).

But, top marks old boy!

I'll propose you for election to the escape committee.

Hang on a mo! how can Dinnertime Dave post at 16.10? Must have a laptop in his room or something.