RFU fail to take their seat

[G]

I've borrowed a quote from Mike Buckley, taken from another thread.

'Back to the old methodology, if you can't counter the arguement discredit the author'

Quite.

[kurnal]

I understand why the RFU is the focus for your concern London but really it goes further than that, doesn't it.
The RFU have stated their no strike policy for many years, therefore the FBU strategy, when planning a National Dispute, should be secure and robust to stand on its own without assistance from any other none affiliated organisation.

I dont think its useful to complain that members of another organisation have undermined your own dispute by "scabbing" when they were absolutely clear for years that this is what they would do in the circumstances.

I dont know much about London Fire Brigade, but I do know a great deal about the retained duty system and many of the people who work it. Personally they are a group I respect very much - I certainly wouldn't be prepared to put up with what they have over the years to serve their communities. They do it for different reasons- to me it was a job- the best job in the world but a job. Very few of them- I believe - are in the RFU and very few retained people would consider striking and harming the community that they make so many sacrifices to serve.  

I have different views on what scabbing is- to me carrying on doing what you always do in your own area  whilst another different oprganisation is on strike is not scabbing. If Great Snoring retained pump went into London City Centre to give cover during a strike that would be scabbing. In my opinion.

I was a branch secretary in the 1977 strike. I dont think the RFU was a factor then- though many retained stations continued working. So we should have learned from that and taken it into account in our 30k campaign. But something I find interesting is that  it was a labour government in power in 1977 and again in 2002.  A known enemy is a simple enemy to deal with. When friends turn into traitors it all gets much more difficult. And both sides see it that way.

[G]

I understand why the RFU is the focus for your concern London but really it goes further than that, doesn't it.
The RFU have stated their no strike policy for many years, therefore the FBU strategy, when planning a National Dispute, should be secure and robust to stand on its own without assistance from any other none affiliated organisation.

You will know from your career that is exactly the case, but does'nt it amaze you (Herts 2006) when the authority is closing two retained stations, fellow RDS (RFU members) from, let's just say, two stations in the East, continue to work whilst the rest of the county, wholetime and unite in the fight to save jobs and appliances?

I dont think its useful to complain that members of another organisation have undermined your own dispute by "scabbing" when they were absolutely clear for years that this is what they would do in the circumstances.

Useful is a personal interpretation, you feel it's not, I feel it is. Always believe in yourself.

I dont know much about London Fire Brigade, but I do know a great deal about the retained duty system and many of the people who work it. Personally they are a group I respect very much - I certainly wouldn't be prepared to put up with what they have over the years to serve their communities.

You seem, as Mr Firetram does, to think this is some form of attack on my brothers and sisters who work the RDS. It is not, and please point me to any comments that I have made which say anything along those lines. The FBU, as you know, stands as one, I don't see RDS, I see a man or a woman who is a trained Firefighter.

We ALL serve our communities, we ALL live within our communities. Many would say that they wouldn’t put up with the changes we are going through as wholetime. In London, we're not, we're fighting the changes which are unnecessary and uncalled for.

My views and comments are directed at the organisation, and mentality of the Rfwho, and how they shout from the rooftops claiming to be the voice of the retained, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Very few of them- I believe - are in the RFU and very few retained people would consider striking and harming the community that they make so many sacrifices to serve.

Less than you think.
Did you think about the harm the 1977 dispute would do, and the potential risk it created? I certainly did in 2002, and would imagine the vast majority followed my train of thinking. No different, whatever system you work. We ALL make sacrifices in life. No one wants disputes and loss of wages / support, but we would be back living on station a week at a time if we did'nt. Comfy chairs and all.

But something I find interesting is that  it was a labour government in power in 1977 and again in 2002.  A known enemy is a simple enemy to deal with. When friends turn into traitors it all gets much more difficult. And both sides see it that way.

That's another debate, one which would never end.

I dont know much about London Fire Brigade

Simply the best.

You will remember after the 1977 dispute, London was going to go solo, even as I walked through the doors of Southwark in 1988, there was still a formidable movement to go down that road. I wonder where the FBU and LFU would be now? Food for thought.

Regard's London

[kurnal]

Thanks for that London.

You will know from your career that is exactly the case, but does'nt it amaze you (Herts 2006) when the authority is closing two retained stations, fellow RDS (RFU members) from, let's just say, two stations in the East, continue to work whilst the rest of the county, wholetime and unite in the fight to save jobs and appliances?

It doesn't surprise me. Most likely their interpretation of the best way of serving their community, some would say not looking further than the parish pump, others may think  there may be better better ways to fight closure than by withdrawing the very service you are striving to protect. We have locally just managed to prevent the closure of a local maternity unit by mobilising the community- there was no talk of industrial action at any stage.

[fireftrm]

You seem to have taken my comments as an attack on LFB, which they aren't.  Your straong branches may achieve things there which don't get the same success elsewhere, but I havee no gripe with that. What goes on in your FRS is for your FRS and your local FBU region.

I do not want you to retract becasue I have evidence of FBU members holding the RFU in regard, what I want is you to refrain from speaking on behalf of hte entrire FBU membership without authority to do so. As a member I haven't been approached for my opinion and asked if you may publicise it, until I am asked and I give you the permission please do not assume you either know it, or have the right to shout about it. You don't.

As to regard for the RFU I actually hold their members in respect, they have a free choice of which organisation to join and some have chosen the RFU over the FBU. I respect that choice. I would rather they joined the FBU, but realise that bludgening them with 'RFwho' and 'scab' comments is extremely unlikey to win their hearts over, quite the opposite.

I am also sensible and bright enough to note that their members did not 'scab' during the last strike as they were not in the union that voted to strike, or then took such action. They are and were ina  union that has a no strike policy, so they were not scabs. No more than anyone in any the NUT would be if working when the NASUWT has a strike, it has happened (as it has in reverse). Indeed for members of other representative bodies, or those not in any union, to withdraw their labour during an official strike by another group would be illegal. The same now is likey to apply within the FBU's own membership. Should there be a dispute over pay that affects Ff to WM inclusive (the NJC) that is not affecting the Middle Managers (whose negotiating body is now separate - the MMNB) then a strike by ff to WM members would, almost certainly, not be able to be legally joined by SM to AM. So the non-striking SM would be a scab? No he/she would be simply not on strike at all, not breaking the strike (scab), any more than the RFU and non-union employees did in the 2002 dispute. If you wish to cast the scab title at anyone then it would have to be at FBU members who carried on working and, believe me, there were quite a number of RDS FBU members who continued to provide cover in their own areas. So call the RDS FBU members who stayed on call during the 2002 dispute scabs and watch even more members think about the RFU. Your attitude may seem to work as a 'calling to arms' in the wholly WDS world, but it will win few friends in the RDS. The FBU does not need such tactics. The press release was fine, your continued harping on is not.

PS my typing errors were due to not using spell checkers, yes, but typing errors they were. If you did use one then may I suggest a call to your FBU learning representative for some literacy assistance?  For example egos' means belonging to egos, the apostrophe is there to denote that. Doe'snt should be doesn't and 'my train of thinking' is more correectly 'my train of thought', if you are to use thinking then the correct wording should have beem 'my way of thinking'. Zilchos and nilchos are not found in any English dictionary, also you have missed quite a few commas. Never throw stones when in a glass house.

Yours Firetram - I like that, love being a firefighter and am impressed by the new tram systems in many cities.

[pugh]

Don't you just love it when it gets personal?

[fireftrm]

No I don't. The users who do make it personal should be moderated more strongly and should not be at all surprised when they get the same, or more, in return

[Chris Houston]

This might be a good time to remind everyone that this is a public forum, and I would request that all posters avoid getting personal.  

Please stick to the subject, avoid name calling, no more personal comments and please leave out the illustrations of others typing or grammatical errors, it does not make for interesting reading.

I'd also appreciate it if we didn't get into a debate about who did what first, censorship of debate etc etc.  If you have any comments to make about my moderation, you can PM me or the site owner.

Cheers,

Chris

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Well well well ...... is this my opinion of the RFU?  Errrrmmmmmm.........

Sorry London, but I don't recall actually stating anything about the RFU and it's members. Like Fireftrm, when I'm asked for my view, I'll give it. That's what I pay my membership fee for.

I have no knowledge of you or your role, but you have used wording here which, to be honest, I find insulting, offensive and degarding to the individuals they are aimed at. Irrespective of whose, if any union they belong to, no-one deserves to be spoken about in that manner. I certainly hope you are not a representative of the Union I am a member of.

While we are all entitled to our own opinions, to launch an attack in the manner which you have under the guise of the "Unions view" is not what I would call professional.  I haven't read anything insulting those FBU members who decided to work through the last strike or is that OK as they are not Retained Firefighter Union members?