2.5 minutes in res care

[PhilB]

I guess I am asking the authors of the Res. care guide to justify the 2.5 minute performance criteria.  Where is the body of documented evidence to demonstate that such a perfomance is reasonable, achievable, not unduly burdening etc?

I don't think they can Colin basing the EVAC time for a ResCare home on 2.5mins which is based on how long it takes to play God Save the King in Scotland in 1911 is a tad daft....but that pails into insignificance when you look at their latest publication.......mooooooo!!

[Colin Newman]

I agree it is bloody daft, but surely the industry, enforcement authorities and their political masters should be applying pressure upon those tasked with leading the way through guidance to at least produce something that is based upon a grain of reality and have some justification.  Otherwise, how can we, the enforcement authorities or their political masters reasonably expect anyone to provide a justifiable solution to a fire safety challenge?  If the guidance is so completely unfounded then surely we are in danger of crap in and crap out and we all amble along in blissfull ignorance until the next big conflagration!

[AFD]

Colin,
I contacted the CLG to ask, why the 2.5 mins was not in the healthcare guide, and to clarify why it was in the resi-care guide as it would always be stick to beat us with should anything go wrong, the answer received was ;

""Residential care premises present particular fire risks. They typically combine a highly dependant population with an unpredictable fire loading that is similar to a domestic environment. Whilst the population of healthcare premises often have a similar level of dependancy, there is much greater control over the materials brought into the premises by patients compared to permanent residents in a care home.

The 2.5 minute period is not intended to be applied rigidly. The ability of staff to conduct an evacuation of a protected area within 2.5 minutes is a starting point upon which to make an assessment. This would be typical of an area where residents do not need to be physically moved by staff. In situations where residents do need to be physically moved then staff should be given the necessary training and equipment to do so.""

Shouldn't a well managed care home should have control over what comes into it ?

I don't think the guide implies that 2.5 min. is for the residents that basically evacuate themselves, and a higher figure is satisfactory for others.  If 2.5min. is a satisfactory starting point time, when in their opinion does the time become unsatisfactory ?  
 
I think the above does not really help, as the figure is in the document and is being quoted by fire authorities without justification already.

I think we need as an industry to lobby the CLG to get clarification or have it removed.

[Ken Taylor]

I still tend to the view that, as the 2.5 mins has historically been related to self-evacuation by ambulant persons, it's in the Guide from that perspective and consideration of the issues of assessment and evacuation from nursing residential care has not picked the inclusion up in the consultation/editing process. At the very least, the Guide needs revision to clarify the point - even if they insist upon including a 'baseline'.

[johno67]

If I remember back into the dim and distant past, I seem to remember that the Green Guide (The Draft Guide to Fire Precautions in Existing Residential Care Premises) allowed sub-compartments with up to 10 beds (12 in the case of purpose built premises) where no fire resisting seperation was required between bedrooms or between the bedrooms and the corridors. There was only seperation (of 30 minutes) between the sub-compartments themselves. (although in practice the corridors and bedroom doors were usually FR)

I think that in that situation it would have been sensible to aim for the lowest evacuation time possible, afterall we know that if a fire was to occur it could easily take out that sub-compartment completely within 2.5 minutes (worst case scenario, with all the bedroom doors being left open and residents bringing their own bedding etc into the home).

The current guides show and ask for fire resisting seperation between the bedrooms and the corridors in every case and in addition for self closing fire doors.
If this is the case then the fire will not (theoretically) break into the corridor for at least 30 minutes (assuming that the fire starts in a bedroom or store room, and not in the corridor where there should be no fire hazards), which should give the staff adequate time to evacuate the sub-compartment. In this situation the 2.5 minutes quoted is simply ridiculous.

I worked as an Inspecting Officer covering Residential Care Premises for several years and would never have dreamed of expecting them to evacuate a sub-compartment within 2.5 minutes, the 30 minutes FR is surely there to provide a greater period for vulnerable service users to be evacuated.

If you do get an overzelous Enforcing Officer use the old chestnut of on average 20% (it may even be higher than that) of the residents are likely to die if they are forced to move home. Not a nice card to play but it may draw them back to the reality of the situation.