Bs5839-1: 2002

[Graeme]

as Dave has brilliantly pointed out the flaws in penny pinching the irony is that customers reluctantly install fd+a systems not only to protect the life within their property but also to protect their business,so it's ironic that that choose to use the cheapest method on one of the most crucial parts of the system.

why pay good money to have a properlly instaled system only to skimp on the most important part.?

i have had numerous experiences of intruder digi's failing,engineers forgetting to take the system out of engineer mode after an intruder service etc.

renderning the fire system pointless after everyone has left the building.

what is the cost of a Redcare monitoring annual fee against the building going up in smoke and potentially going out of business?

[Wiz]

Everything that Dave highlighted is absolutely spot-on.

However, I would suggest that not everyone is a PPP (Penny-Pinching Plonker) but many are just a CCC (Cost Conscious Customer) and will continue offering the following viewpoints.

1) BT's Redcare is unreasonably expensive because only they can offer the benefit of the remotely fault-monitored line. This includes on-going regular charges as well as initial costs. Customers hate not having a competitive choice.

2) Paying for two (or more?) BT Redcare services is not really cost-effective when the original monitoring service was designed to handle up to 8 different alarm warning signals on the same line, not just one signal. Why buy a car capable of seating eight people and then being told that if you and your wife want to travel to the same place, you will each need your own car?

3) Distrust of industries, manufacturing and installing high-tech systems, that seem to be unable to come up with a simple solution acceptable to the technical and operational requirements of both the fire and intruder industries. The existing multi-Redcare solution to the problems financially benefit BT, the equipment manufacturers and the installers only. Customer's hate being 'oversold'.

Until we can offer a usable integrated solution I can't see CCC's being impressed with the supposed benefits of arc monitored fire systems.

[Thebeardedyorkshireman]

Happy New Year to you all and thanks for the kind comments re the post. Feel free to paste and stick if you want to make use of the list. I think I removed any ref to us but please check first.
On the multi channel topic, it is a shame that we don't have decent unit designed for the job.
 Using the Wiz link to the car.... What if the drivers seat only came as a pack of eight and they chucked seven seats in the back just to use them up??? You could then argue that it's a single seat vehicle designed for a single task. the surplus just happens to be there NOT designed to be there for a specific task. Thus would you really take the wife and kids out in it? My recollection of the evolution of the multi channel digi was not far from the above. Our industry has just accepted them as the norm now and all other developments follow on. ( steps quietly down from his soap box and shuffles away with his flat cap)

What a shame that the Redcare FIRE stu was not designed to work on the SAME line as a Security redcare. Simple technology, just shift the frequency and bingo problem solved. I may be wrong but do you feel that ''more lines more money'' may be having an influence on the development

Matron, more pills please
Dave

[kurnal]

Dave and Wiz- thanks for the information and I have already added the points you raised into the fire risk assessment checklist.

Also sent a memo to Matron not to buy the new minibus from a Yorkshireman. Sounds dodgy to me. Bit like having 7 back seat drivers. Wiz- are you still in Matrons clutches?  Are you tyred of this thread?

[Graeme]

What a shame that the Redcare FIRE stu was not designed to work on the SAME line as a Security redcare. Simple technology, just shift the frequency and bingo problem solved. I may be wrong but do you feel that ''more lines more money'' may be having an influence on the development

Looks that way Dave. Why can't they make a Fire Stu with more than 3 pins?

it would make life easier and cheaper to run the intruder from it as well

[Wiz]

What a shame that the Redcare FIRE stu was not designed to work on the SAME line as a Security redcare. Simple technology, just shift the frequency and bingo problem solved. I may be wrong but do you feel that ''more lines more money'' may be having an influence on the development

Looks that way Dave. Why can't they make a Fire Stu with more than 3 pins?

it would make life easier and cheaper to run the intruder from it as well

Graeme I would guess that the problem is probably because the fire stu wouldn't be in an enclosure that was 'tamper protected' for the intruder requirements.

I believe that the intruder requirements don't have a negative impact on the fire requirements so my solution would be a special multi-system redcare communicator that met the protection requirements of the intruder alarm (apart from access to the input connections for the fire and any other non-intruder signals) and with a power supply that met the fire requirements. Finally, any isolating facility(ies) should only affect the signal that the isolation related to, and finally the loss of the redcare line connection created fault outputs that could be connected to any systems that might want notification of such a problem.

[Wiz]

Wiz- ........Are you tyred of this thread?

Prof. K, surely you meant 'tyred of this tread?' And yes, Matron is still keeping me under her thumb. And sometimes just under her. Help!

[Graeme]

Wiz

get your thinking cap on and make a prototype. remember us all when you make your fortune.

or get on Dragons Den.  

G

[Wiz]

Wiz

get your thinking cap on and make a prototype. remember us all when you make your fortune.

or get on Dragons Den.  

G

Graeme, my geriatiric mind is still constanly full of ideas and 'improvements'. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time to follow most of them up, especially since Matron got her claws into me.

As a wizard, I'm used to dealing with dragons - but Duncan Ballentyne scares me big time!