Which panel is satisfiactory.

[Andrew]

Hi,
 I have been asked to install a grade A Ld1 fire alarm system in a 3 storey property (to be used as student accommodation).
The system consists of 8 smokes, 1 heat, 4 break glasses, 4 sounders & the control panel.

My question is does this c/panel have to be addressable to comply with a grade a , ld1?

Or can I get away with using a basic 2 zone panel. Such as a premier sx.

Im an electrician not a fire alarm engineer so i dont know your regulations.

[kurnal]

Andrew with all due respect how can you consider installing a life safety fire alarm system for someone if you dont know the regs and recommendations under BS5839?
I know its not rocket science but unless you are  fully familiar with BS5839 parts 1 and 6 I think you would be taking a huge risk. Under the Fire Safety Order you would be personally liable for the consequences of poor design or installation.

What would you say to a fire alarm engineer if he asked for your advice - been asked to rewire a factory unit 3 phase - dont know what the regs say but its just a matter of a lighting circuit, ring main and a fuse box isnt it?

By the way- to answer your question- no it doesn't need to be addressable.

[Andrew]

Good point.
But I have alot of experience  of wiring f/a systems in schools after working contractor. Just never done any of the design or commissioning of the panels before.
Working to a spec, so its not too bad. It just didnt specify the type of panel.

Cheers.

[Chris Houston]

Andrew,

I just also ask if you are the right person to be doing this job?

Are you aware of all the other recommendations of the British Standard, this is a life safety system you are installing?

(PS I have deleted your other thread, please don't start duplicate threads.)

[Andrew]

I run an electrical installation company.
Its common practice for electricians to install the wiring for and second fix fire alarm systems. (just on the bigger installations an f/a engineer would come along to commission)
 I dont see them as being that much different from 240 volt interlinkable systems, just wasnt sure of an adequate panel to use.

[David Rooney]

I run an electrical installation company.
Its common practice for electricians to install the wiring for and second fix fire alarm systems. (just on the bigger installations an f/a engineer would come along to commission)
 I dont see them as being that much different from 240 volt interlinkable systems, just wasnt sure of an adequate panel to use.

Andrew the size of panel, if you go for non addressable depends on the number of stories, the complexity of the building, the number of rooms, whether you are going to use remote indicators outside of rooms and a host of other considerations.

Why do you not get a specialist fire company to supply and commission the job for you? They would design it as well and take a lot of the responsibility off your shoulders.

[Graeme]

I run an electrical installation company.
Its common practice for electricians to install the wiring for and second fix fire alarm systems. (just on the bigger installations an f/a engineer would come along to commission)
 I dont see them as being that much different from 240 volt interlinkable systems, just wasnt sure of an adequate panel to use.

yes and most of these installs i have comissioned are not too great

slightly different to 240v smoke alarms.


LD1 system but what Grade ?

Grade A is a BS5839-1 panel.  Being a spark that will probably be Newlec.......

[John Dragon]

Grade A is a BS5839-1 panel.  Being a spark that will probably be Newlec.......


Or God forbid a Rafiki / Sensotech / insert name here

[Graeme]

JSB C-tec ......

Have to admit this is a big annoyance thing for me.

I have spent hours and money getting all the qualifications i need to work with fire systems even though it is the only job i have done since serving my time as an electrician.

I do not do electrical work and i get in a contrctor to run the 240v supply as i do not have the relevant paper work.

Why then do sparks continue to fire in fire alarms willy nilly with the attitude that if it's a small install it does not need anyone else?.
Yet to see an installation certificate from a spark or proof of competance on a job.

If this was an electrical forum and i was asking a basic question on how to wire up a socket-then i'm sure the response would be to get in a suitably qualified professional.

I see some very good installs for sparks but i also see  total shambles from the ones who think fire is a piece of cake.It usually me who ends up sorting out the mess.

[John Dragon]

JSB C-tec ......

Have to admit this is a big annoyance thing for me.

I have spent hours and money getting all the qualifications i need to work with fire systems even though it is the only job i have done since serving my time as an electrician.

I do not do electrical work and i get in a contrctor to run the 240v supply as i do not have the relevant paper work.

Why then do sparks continue to fire in fire alarms willy nilly with the attitude that if it's a small install it does not need anyone else?.
Yet to see an installation certificate from a spark or proof of competance on a job.

If this was an electrical forum and i was asking a basic question on how to wire up a socket-then i'm sure the response would be to get in a suitably qualified professional.

I see some very good installs for sparks but i also see  total shambles from the ones who think fire is a piece of cake.It usually me who ends up sorting out the mess.

Ditto to all of the above.
One thing that really hacks me off is the amount of sparkies who get jobs that we have quoted for as they are cheaper, then you find out that there is no sounder in each bedroom.
Also local authority/brigade/building control don't give a monkey's so long as a cert has been issued.
Graeme - we used the BS5839 CTEC panel (The MFP microprocessor one, not the cheap one) for years (occasionally still do) and it is excellent, however the new plastic one (the CFP) is not one I will buy!
My pet hate at the moment is Rafiki - most jobs done by sparkies have this stuff under one of its many pseudonyms and they cause us more problems than all the other cheap stuff together.

[AnthonyB]

Don't they do the twin-wire conventional systems with multi-sensors?

What's the problems - our new offices had one but in by the D&B contractors and I'm looking at them for a project, so it would be worth knowing!

[John Dragon]

Failures of optical sensing chambers.
Poor reliability of components.
The ability of a detector fault to kill a panel.
We look after one 8 zone system which is 18 months old and is on its 3rd main PCB and this one already has a faulty zone.
2 and 4 zone systems use a poor quality plasticky code entry panel.
Most of these that we take on for maintenance are usually as a result of the client getting fed up with the inability of the sparky who fitted it being unable to cure problems.
I am not against 2 wire systems (we install Kentec / Hochiki 2 wires), and Rafiki themselves are very helpful, but the call outs we get on them are disproportionate.
The theory is good - single detector that can be set for smoke, heat and sounder, it's just the cheapest stuff you can buy and when the client gets fed up and says "put another make of detector on it", you can't cos its not compat with anything else.

[Allen Higginson]

Failures of optical sensing chambers.
Poor reliability of components.
The ability of a detector fault to kill a panel.
We look after one 8 zone system which is 18 months old and is on its 3rd main PCB and this one already has a faulty zone.
2 and 4 zone systems use a poor quality plasticky code entry panel.
Most of these that we take on for maintenance are usually as a result of the client getting fed up with the inability of the sparky who fitted it being unable to cure problems.
I am not against 2 wire systems (we install Kentec / Hochiki 2 wires), and Rafiki themselves are very helpful, but the call outs we get on them are disproportionate.
The theory is good - single detector that can be set for smoke, heat and sounder, it's just the cheapest stuff you can buy and when the client gets fed up and says "put another make of detector on it", you can't cos its not compat with anything else.

Agreed on all pints - I think that the two wire concept is a good one where the installation of an addressable system is out of the question but minimal cabling is desirable.
I've used (at customers request because we do not have a conventional two wire product) Apollo detectors with Fulleon base sounders (can't remeber panel name at this point).to achieve bed head sound levels on existing systems.