BS5839:1 - type of cable needed

[MonkeyBoy]

Hi all!

A quick question (which will possibly lead to lengthy discussions.....)

5839:1  Clause 26 gives the specifications for cables etc.
This clause refers to 3.13 (terms and definitions) for "critical signal path" which states:
"all components and interconnections between every fire alarm installation point (manual call point or automatic fire detector) and the input terminals on, or within, each fire alarm device".

Could anybody guide me towards the correct standard for the cable between the panel and the sounders??

Historically it has always been "ass-u-me-d" that this cable was also fire resisting (FP200 or similar complying cable) but I haven't been able to locate any reference in 5839?

Look forward to hearing from you all,

Monkeyboy

[Chris Houston]

I could spend ages on the long and more technically accurate answer, but the short answer is that FP200 is fine, as would any of the main alternatives, except in certain higher risk premises with phased evacuation where more than 30 minutes fire resistance is needed.

I think 5839 Part 1 2002 does mention the relevant standard.

[MonkeyBoy]

Thanks Chris - what I would really like to know is "where" in 5839 it actually specifies the cable type.


Reason: one of my colleagues recently attended a premises which has had work done on its AFD system at some in the past (possibly by a non-reputable person/company) and it has raised the question.


Thanks

Monkeyboy

[Ricardo]

what I would really like to know is "where" in 5839 it actually specifies the cable type.
Thanks

Monkeyboy

See Clause 26, the code specifically recommends only 3 types of cable:
1 - Mineral Insulated Copper Sheathed Cable(complying with BS EN 60702-1):2002

2 - Cables complying with BS 7629-2: 1997

3 - Armoured Fire Resistant Cables complying with BS 7846:2000

[MonkeyBoy]

Thanks Ricardo!

The big bite in the original question is aimed in line with the "critical signal path" - there does not appear to be any specific reference to "sounders".
call points & detectors are mentioned, power supply connection is mentioned and also the link between detector and remote indicator is mentioned.

I cannot, however, find reference to cabling for the sounders.


Regards,

Monkeyboy

[Chris Houston]

I don't have my version to hand and I'm a little bit busy to be re-reading tonight, but I think the signal to the sounders is kinda critical too?

[Allen Higginson]

I don't have my version to hand and I'm a little bit busy to be re-reading tonight, but I think the signal to the sounders is kinda critical too?

Opening commentary from 2002:part 1,Section 2:26 sort of shows the importance of maintained cable integrity -

"It is essential that all interconnections operate correctly at the time of a fire. This is particularly important
in the case of cables that link control equipment to manual call points, automatic fire detectors and fire
alarm devices, and that transmit signals to an alarm receiving centre. It is only less important in the case
of interconnections between the fire alarm system and other equipment that are so arranged that failure of
interconnecting cables during a fire would not lead to a dangerous condition (e.g. because the failure causes
the other equipment to change state to that appropriate to the fire condition)."

[Wiz]

Hi all!

A quick question (which will possibly lead to lengthy discussions.....)

5839:1  Clause 26 gives the specifications for cables etc.
This clause refers to 3.13 (terms and definitions) for "critical signal path" which states:
"all components and interconnections between every fire alarm installation point (manual call point or automatic fire detector) and the input terminals on, or within, each fire alarm device".

Could anybody guide me towards the correct standard for the cable between the panel and the sounders??

Historically it has always been "ass-u-me-d" that this cable was also fire resisting (FP200 or similar complying cable) but I haven't been able to locate any reference in 5839?

Look forward to hearing from you all,

Monkeyboy

Whooooa hold up MonkeyBoy!

BS 5839 Part 1 2002 obviously recommends fire-resisting cable for the sounders!

You have mentioned the appropriate recommendation in your question above (I have highlighted it in bold). It mentions 'fire alarm device'. Now read the definition for fire alarm device in BS and you will find it is described as a 'component of a fire alarm system, not incorporated in the control and indicating equipment, which is used to give warning of fire' . This obviously includes fire alarm sounders. In fact the definition is followed by a note that says 'For example, a sounder or visual indicator'

By the way. Your original post also included the word 'installation' (I have highlighted it by underlining it) when this should really have read as 'initiation'

You have to read all the small print in BS to get an idea of what it is recommending - If they made it easy then anyone could understand it and this would give us all nothing to discuss and argue about! - I knew all those years reading Contract Law at SoL university would stand me in good stead one day!!!

[Ricardo]

Thanks Ricardo!

The big bite in the original question is aimed in line with the "critical signal path" - there does not appear to be any specific reference to "sounders".
Regards,

Monkeyboy

Monkeyboy,

From what I have read and others more prominant in this field have said, the code "recommends" that all cable systems used for all parts of the "critical signal path", and for the low voltage mains supply to the system, should be fire resisting.This recommendation applies to the cable itself.

[Wiz]

From what I have read and others more prominant in this field have said, the code "recommends" that all cable systems used for all parts of the "critical signal path", and for the low voltage mains supply to the system, should be fire resisting.This recommendation applies to the cable itself.

And to the cable support and/or fixings!

[David Rooney]

Hi all!

A quick question (which will possibly lead to lengthy discussions.....)

5839:1  Clause 26 gives the specifications for cables etc.
This clause refers to 3.13 (terms and definitions) for "critical signal path" which states:
"all components and interconnections between every fire alarm installation point (manual call point or automatic fire detector) and the input terminals on, or within, each fire alarm device".

Could anybody guide me towards the correct standard for the cable between the panel and the sounders??

Historically it has always been "ass-u-me-d" that this cable was also fire resisting (FP200 or similar complying cable) but I haven't been able to locate any reference in 5839?

Look forward to hearing from you all,

Monkeyboy

I think what your actually asking is.... where does the word "sounder" come into all this....

"fire alarm device
component of a fire alarm system, not incorporated in the control and indicating equipment, which is used
to give a warning of fire

NOTE    For example, a sounder or visual indicator."

under definitions, a fire alarm device is basically a sounder, therefore sounders are included within the critical signal path and therefore clause 3.13 as you quote it is correct, and includes sounders.....

[Wiz]

Hi all!

A quick question (which will possibly lead to lengthy discussions.....)

5839:1  Clause 26 gives the specifications for cables etc.
This clause refers to 3.13 (terms and definitions) for "critical signal path" which states:
"all components and interconnections between every fire alarm installation point (manual call point or automatic fire detector) and the input terminals on, or within, each fire alarm device".

Could anybody guide me towards the correct standard for the cable between the panel and the sounders??

Historically it has always been "ass-u-me-d" that this cable was also fire resisting (FP200 or similar complying cable) but I haven't been able to locate any reference in 5839?

Look forward to hearing from you all,

Monkeyboy

I think what your actually asking is.... where does the word "sounder" come into all this....

"fire alarm device
component of a fire alarm system, not incorporated in the control and indicating equipment, which is used
to give a warning of fire

NOTE    For example, a sounder or visual indicator."

under definitions, a fire alarm device is basically a sounder, therefore sounders are included within the critical signal path and therefore clause 3.13 as you quote it is correct, and includes sounders.....

David, didn't I say this in my post 4 places above? Or is your post just re-inforcement of what I said?

[MonkeyBoy]

Many thanks to all of you in assisting in clearing up this query!

Keep up the good work!  

[David Rooney]

Sorry Wiz.... must have been a bit of short term memory loss induced by London Pride.......!!