Author Topic: Fire resistant construction for kitchens  (Read 9152 times)

Offline TickityBoo

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« on: February 08, 2008, 05:31:01 PM »
I have a question regarding the passive fire protection of kitchens in non-domestic premises.  One would have thought that due to the increased likelihood of a fire ocurring in a kitchen e.g. restaurant in a pub/hotel etc, that fire resistant walls, ceilings and floors, where appropriate, would be required and that the doors to such areas would be fire doors.  However, I can find no such requirement in the Scottish Non-Domestic Technical Handbook.    Places of special fire risk require 30 minutes protection but the definition excludes kitchen appliances and so it would seem that kitchens are not classed as such.  

Many restaurants have "open kitchens" with no separation but often the cooking appliances have suppression systems built in. This obviously helps to reduce the risk but are there no standards re. passive protection?

Grateful for any advice.

Offline nearlythere

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2008, 05:58:18 PM »
Provided that the means of escape is not compromised I really do not see a problem. As long as a means of escape is away from its general direction.
Open kitchens could be said to be safer for members of the public because if an incident occurs it is immediately seen and reacted to.

Kitchens are not places of special fire risk. They may be places where a fire is more likely to happen due to the processes undertaken therein but there is nothing special about them.  

Carry out chip shops with deep fat fryers usually near the front door?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline wee brian

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 08:02:48 PM »
Its something we used to do more of, but codes are getting more sensible about dealing with risk.

Offline davio1960

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 09:09:08 PM »
Its a shame the official guides for england and wales has added that commercial kitchens should be
"Catering facilities
Wherever possible, any extensive catering
facility, particularly those with deep fat fryers,
should be located in separate buildings. If
located within other buildings they should be
separated from the rest of the building by fireresisting
construction and provided with
adequate ventilation."

Imagine every big Mac and burger king and pizza house and ....and......and... having to seperate the kitchen posibly to next door. Proportional, reasonable
Have these gone out the window or just behind a solid line of FR!
Davio 1960 ranting
Regards Davio1960

Offline slubberdegullion

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2008, 09:45:10 PM »
As nearlythere states above, as long as the kitchen is not in a position to compromise the means of escape, what's the problem?

Well, there are a couple of possible problems that may or may not be significant:

1.  The first is the simplest one.  The kitchen is a room where there is a higher risk of a fire starting.  Therefore there is a higher risk of a fire spreading to the rest of the building.  Therefore there is an increased risk to everyone in or around the building from fire.  

On the other hand, a fire in a kitchen whilst the premises and therefore the kitchen are occupied is unlikely to be undetected almost immediately.  Therefore the probability of a fire that starts in the kitchen spreading to the rest of the building is much reduced.  The previous paragraph is countered.

On balance, the appropriateness of this line of reasoning will depend upon particular circumstances in the building.

2.  The second potential problem is to do with assessing whether a fire in a kitchen is able to compromise the means of escape.

Just because the kitchen is located away from the means of escape does not necessarily mean that a fire in it cannot affect the means of escape.  It usually depends upon the number of people in the same space as the kitchen.  

If there are only 50 or 60 then they are likely to be able to get out of the room with barely no queueing and so will not be too concerned if the hot smoke from the fire is travelling fairly rapidly under the ceiling towards them.

Just as an aside, if there is only one door out of a room we limit the number of people in the room to only 60, not because we think they can all get out safely in 2 and a half minutes but because, if the fire is near the door, we know that they will have to get out of the room much quicker than that - say 1 and a half minutes.

So...... a button on your head....

No.........back to the point........

So, what if we have a restaurant with a capacity of one hundred people and two 750mm doors, one front, one back.  The ceiling height is a typical 2.5m.  If the population cannot use the rear exit because it is adjacent to the fire in the kitchen then they all have to go out the front.  We know that they will take around about 2 and a half minutes to get out.  In that time, a fire can grow pretty large in a kitchen (I'm assuming no Ansul, or similar system here) and the products of combustion can move pretty fast under the ceiling.  Those at the back of the queue might be a little too close for comfort to the spreading smoke.

For me, this scenario could be similar to the single exit one.  We want everyone out the room before the fire threatens their means of escape.  Compensatory features for allowing large numbers of people in the same space as the kitchen are, suppression such as an Ansul system, high ceilings or overprovision of exit width (particularly the exit far from the kitchen).

Ok, you'd think we'd have shorter start up times if the people can see the fire.  But, 1. It is often difficult to tell the difference between theatrical flambeeing by performing chefs and an actual fire; 2. People will always be reluctant to leave the meal they've waited so long for; and 3. the start up time is not important here - with largish numbers of people, start up times become unimportant and the time to empty a room depends more on flow times.  The two and a half minutes flow time is plenty of time  for a fire in the kitchen to spread products of combustion throughout a space.

Stu

Offline martyn brandrick

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 10:49:12 AM »
Stu,

Two and half minutes (empire theatre edinburgh) start up time making up kitchens or not, these were the days.  I like to watch those famous chefs cooking in an open plan kitchen turning out fantastic quarter pounders.  As long as you can turn your back and walk away no need to FR.

Offline kurnal

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 12:11:14 PM »
Stu thats spot on- a brilliant summary.

We must never under estimate peoples reluctance to leave a plate of food that they have paid for though. This was a big factor in the fatal fire at Littlewoods Chesterfield 1992 ish.

And come to think of it there are other things that people are very reluctant to leave behind in hotel bedrooms when the fire alarm sounds. Only in hotels very often that something really belongs to someone else. :)

Davo

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2008, 12:45:54 PM »
Wot you finkin of there Mr K?????
Surely not bafftowels?

The bit about not leaving snap is spot on, witnessed a dozen bobbies who weren't leaving their fry up for no one!

davo

Offline martyn brandrick

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Fire resistant construction for kitchens
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2008, 05:00:02 PM »
Quote from: kurnal
Stu thats spot on- a brilliant summary.

We must never under estimate peoples reluctance to leave a plate of food that they have paid for though. This was a big factor in the fatal fire at Littlewoods Chesterfield 1992 ish.
The issue of people not wanting to leave is important however this is balanced out by proper staff training.  You cannot really expect people to be happy and quick smart (school kids) when the fire alarm goes off if they are tucking into a nice tasty dinner.  This is where staff training comes into its own and ushers or hungry punters out the door until the all clear...........If this does not happen then get the FRA ooot.