Author Topic: Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?  (Read 11735 times)

Offline Cheesysocks

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« on: March 22, 2008, 09:27:56 PM »
Hi.

My first post here so go easy! :)

I have been reading the RRO and have understood 99% of it, but this article says "...this order...binds the Crown." But only premises they own but don't occupy.

Am I right in translating that as...

If the crown owns property and are using it, the RRO does not cover it.

But if the crown owns property but are letting it to someone else, then it's fair game for the RRO.

I just want to get my head clear about it.  Thanks.

Offline kurnal

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2008, 11:12:39 PM »
Welcome to the forum Cheesysocks. By the way I strongly recommend tea tree oil cream applied to the feet daily. Works a treat.

You are not looking at the full details quoted in the order.

Yes the order does bind the Crown apart from articles 29 (alterations notices), 30(enforcement notices) and 32 to 36 (Offences, penalties appeals, determination) .  whilst article 27 (Powers of Inspectors)  and 31 ( Prohibition Notices) apply in premises owned by the Crown but not occupied by it. If the Crown owns and occupies premises articles 27 and 31 do not apply either.

This is because Regina (the Queen) cannot prosecute or enforce against herself.

So yes the order does bind the Crown but enforcement procedures will never be taken against the Crown. But in Crown owned property let out to others, the tenants are fair game.

Offline Cheesysocks

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2008, 12:26:14 PM »
Thanks for the answer Kurnal. I love explanations in plain English! :)

As for the tea tree stuff, we use a tea tree shampoo for our son as an anti nit shampoo for school.  It works, but what a pong!

Offline Wiz

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2008, 12:36:43 PM »
Quote from: Cheesysocks
As for the tea tree stuff, we use a tea tree shampoo for our son as an anti nit shampoo for school.  It works, but what a pong!
But somewhat less pongy than cheesysocks :)

Chris Houston

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 01:32:35 PM »
Cheesysocks, I would just like to welcome you to the forum and congratulate you on what I consider to be the best nickname yet.  I do hope you can work out how to upload an avatar (image) so we can be clearer about the cheese levels and give us a clue regarding flavour.

(Appologies to all members for the truely unprofessional nature of this message, my excuse is that it is Easter.  Moderating FireNet on a bank holiday, wonder if I will get double time for this......)

Offline John Webb

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 02:31:34 PM »
Quote from: kurnal
....Yes the order does bind the Crown apart from articles 29 (alterations notices), 30(enforcement notices) and 32 to 36 (Offences, penalties appeals, determination) .  whilst article 27 (Powers of Inspectors)  and 31 ( Prohibition Notices) apply in premises owned by the Crown but not occupied by it. If the Crown owns and occupies premises articles 27 and 31 do not apply either.

This is because Regina (the Queen) cannot prosecute or enforce against herself......
It also saves the Government of the day money so they don't have to tax everyone quite as much - or they can find more interesting things for Ministers to buy with money they could otherwise spend on the safety of their minions. As an ex-civil servant I was always irked by the need to justify every fire precaution and piece of fire prevention equipment - and this was in an establishment devoted to setting things on fire, exploding gases etc. and giving advice on fire safety to which ever flavour Government was in power.

So Crown 'immunity' and its removal is a cause dear to my heart, as you might conclude from the above.

Rant over!
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline steve walker

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 06:33:24 PM »
Although it does apply to premises owed by the Crown it is enforced by "fire inspectors" not fire brigade IOs.

Enforcing authorities
     25. ...(e) a fire inspector, or any person authorised by the Secretary of State to act for the purposes of this Order, in relation to—

(i) premises owned or occupied by the Crown, ...

At least that is my interpretation.
The views expressed in this forum are personal and not necessarily those of my employer.

Offline jokar

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 08:20:04 PM »
CPIG Inspectors to be correct now they have a change of name.

Midland Retty

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 10:54:16 AM »
CPIG Inspectors are they not referred to as Inspectors of the Cheif Fire and Rescue Service Adviser these days?

Mind you who would want to inspect the Cheif Fire and Rescuse Adviser, Im sure he would feel mightily violated

Offline finsp

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 01:16:14 PM »
Crown Premises Inspection Group are a dept with in the Chief Fire and Rescue Advisers Unit

Midland Retty

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 01:19:48 PM »
ahhh I did wonder if the were still called CPIG

Obviously so!

Offline val

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2008, 07:20:58 PM »
Quote from: finsp
Crown Premises Inspection Group are a dept with in the Chief Fire and Rescue Advisers Unit
Technically true but as there are few people in the CFRAU, I am not sure how much managing/direction/guidance they get.

Gone awlfully quiet in that brave new body!

messy

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2008, 07:49:54 PM »
I was under the impression (from a CPIG IO) that they were rushed off their feet at present as Her Maj is buying up large parts of London to increase her property portfolio as well as re developing much of her current stock.

Doesn't she know there's a property crash coming??????

Offline devon4ever

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2008, 12:04:41 AM »
Hi all, before this thread descends into "feet odour problem" chaos, can I add my 3pence worth - I do have some knowledge of Crown & Armed Forces premises.

Firstly, All the RR(FS)O guides will quote the following statement in the preface: (direct quote)

"Who enforces the Fire Safety Order?
The local fire and rescue authority (the fire and rescue service) will enforce the
Order1 in most premises. The exceptions are:
• Crown-occupied/owned premises where Crown fire inspectors will enforce;
• premises within armed forces establishments where the defence fire and rescue
service will enforce;
• certain specialist premises including construction sites, ships (under repair or
construction) and nuclear installations, where the HSE will enforce; and
• sports grounds and stands designated as needing a safety certificate by the local
authority, where the local authority will enforce."

Secondly, within MoD or Armed Forces premises, the Defence Fire & Rescue Service operate a fire safety management plan method of risk assessment that is designed to identify and mitigate risk to life, the document came into force under the workplace regs 1997, (as amended 1999) and was re-written to embrace the requirements of the RR(FS)O in 2006.

My personal take on this is that although Crown cannot prosecute Crown etc, an individual Crown employee is still liable to prosecution if negligence can be proved, (this has been the case since 1974 under HASAW Act), however, vicarious liability can also be directed upwards to include the Head of Establishment, (the Colonel of the Regiment for example) if it is proved that he/she has not taken cogniscance or discharged his/her responsbilities under the RR(FS)O with due diligence.

As for the original question about letting out Crown property, yes this is a grey area as some defence estates management agencies will lease buildings under a locally written contract, some will offer peppercorn rents for a couple of years to allow the lessee/occupier to bring the building up to a standard commensurate to current legislation, Im unsure as to how this contract will stand in a robust application of the RR(FS)O, however it is an established custom & practice. In premises where MoD or military personnel are employed the RR(FS)O is enthusiastically enforced. Hope this helps
(The Stig is my next door neighbour!)

Offline Cheesysocks

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Q ref article 49. What does it mean in English?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2008, 09:27:48 PM »
Hi again.

Wow, I didn't know I'd stir up such a stink in here! :) Thanks to all who replied, your answers are apprecieated.