L1 alarm system in nursing home

[John Dragon]

L1 system in new nursing home (dementia care) -
I have specced detection in all sluice rooms, assisted bath rooms and toilets (not en suites!).
Fire officer has said he does not want detection in these rooms, is he right?
Is this still an L1 system?
Opinions please?
Thanks.

[messy]

WTF has it got to do with the local Fire Safety team?

It's down to the responsible persons (or those appointed by him) to determine the requirements.

Why is s/he sticking his/her nose in?

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

L1 system in new nursing home (dementia care) -
I have specced detection in all sluice rooms, assisted bath rooms and toilets (not en suites!).

Have you considered the unwanted fire signals this may generate? Maybe this is where the officer is coming from.

I hope this is aresult of a fire risk assessment, but then what is the fire risk in a bathroom and sluice room?

[wee brian]

Have a read of this - Building regs appeal No 43/3/183

http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/buildingregulations/determinationsandappeals/appealsbysubject/bmeans/b1ref433183/

[Midland Retty]

WTF has it got to do with the local Fire Safety team?

It's down to the responsible persons (or those appointed by him) to determine the requirements.

Why is s/he sticking his/her nose in?

It has quite a lot to do with them I'd say Messy

If its a new nursing home the FRA will have involvement via both Building Control and of course CSCI registration.

If the FRA have been approached for advice they will give it. Far better now to get things right at this stage rather than deal with any consequences later.


Back to your question John, I normally say that any risk room off the escape routes should have detection... L1 wouldnt normally recommend detectors in toilets (unless you consider they do contain a risk)

Sluice rooms againunless they contain any form of risk perhaps no , assisted bathrooms containing electric baths / powered hoists then possibly yes.

[messy]

Call me old fashioned, but isn't it for the RP to assess the risk and adopt control measures as necessary?

I agree it's not common practise for detection in such rooms and advice may be offered to that regard (if for no other reason than to save the RP money)

Yes the FRS have input via building control and CSCI, but if the RP wants to install extra AFD, why stop him?

I realise that UwFS can be a problem in these rooms and FRS should offer advice on such matters, but for a Fire Safety Inpecting Officer to say he "doesn't want protection in these rooms" s/he is surely overstepping his/her remit??

[AFD]

If the person doing the risk assessment feels they need something that the FSO thinks it is over and above, the FSO may make recommendations to save money for the organisation or  person, but he cannot say you cannot !

If the system creates problems for the fire service they may say the system is not designed correctly and take issue in the future but not until.

What if you had a mental health unit with fire setters in it. Where can they go to be alone ? What would you ask for initially ?

[devon4ever]

I agree with the FSO's comments that the provision of detection in WC's & sluices is over the top, (irrespective of whether its his call or not surely he or she can voice his or her opinion), i've seen a "dado-rail" of call points in a corridor in my time in order that the alarm installation company gets a holiday in Maritius.
Yes good point that there is a possibility of fire setters with people suffering from mental illness or dementia, but you can provide early detection in the MoE corridor and you can't beat a waking staff walk around.

Digressing slightly, but on the subject of residential care homes, I risk assessed one recently that had a nursing unit dedicated to one floor, when I asked to look inside the store room at the end of the corridor that was locked, I was told "That's only for our linen and paper towels etc" says the manger, when I finally got to look inside, it also had 48 oxygen cylinders in it - result! (It did have a detector in it though!)

[Graeme]

detectors are not too good at detecting explosions though.

Under BS5839-1 afd is not required in toilets and bathrooms unless in public buildings such as supermarkets etc where thay are risk from arson.

I would doubt that if a home with firesetters in woould have any access to lighters etc but you never know i suppose.

I have seen bathrooms with really old dodgy wall heaters in that could pose a risk.

with regards to having electric hoists etc then they should only be operating when there was a member of staff present.

[John Dragon]

Update on this - final inspection yesterday by building regs and fire officer.
I got pulled up on the lack of detection in sluice rooms by the fire officer!!!!
When he was told he had that he had said he didn't want them there (lets be fair, probably a different fire officer) he no longer wanted them!

Before RRO we were given a set of plans marked up by the fire brigade and that was it.
Are these new rules really an improvement? or should we be doing things american style where a fire officers word is law?

[nearlythere]

L1 system in new nursing home (dementia care) -
I have specced detection in all sluice rooms, assisted bath rooms and toilets (not en suites!).
Fire officer has said he does not want detection in these rooms, is he right?
Is this still an L1 system?
Opinions please?
Thanks.

Fire Officers do not normally say what they don't want. If you want to put AFD in the dog kennel that's your business, not his/hers. As long as the minimum standard relevant to the premises is provided anything over and above that is your choice.
It may be something to do with the possibility of steam setting off the system.
Strange one but it may be the consequence of the F&R Service's rank structure.

[Dinnertime Dave]

I would doubt that if a home with firesetters in woould have any access to lighters etc but you never know i suppose.

In my county there has recently been a fire in a residential care home where the staff had identified that a resident (through an individual risk assessment) was a known fire setter. They removed all ignition sources from his room but they then filled his cupboard with incontinence pads. He then went to another resident’s room and collected a box of matches.

Small fire, lots of smoke and multiple rescues - fortunately everyone survived. My point here is never doubt anything.

[Clevelandfire]

Yes had similar situation myself. Talk about things dissapearing up their own backside, CSCI says you cant deprive residents of human rights and search their person or rooms but if you dont things like this happen