Author Topic: FRA's In private residents  (Read 6560 times)

Offline Robbie P

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FRA's In private residents
« on: May 08, 2008, 10:01:25 PM »
A friend who resides in a Victorian house has recently approached myself for some advice. The house is set on 3 levels made up of ground, first and second floor with a basement flat that has a separate entrance, but no other means of access to the property. The property has been converted to private flats with tenants who each own there own freehold.

Recently the basement flat has been put up for sale and a potential purchaser has asked for a fire risk assessment to be carried out.

As it has shared communal means of escape, it is understood that an FRA is to be carried out on this area to comply with the Fire order and each individual has a duty to provide co-operation and coordination.

However what is classified as suitable and sufficient FRA?  After consulting the guidance document for sleeping accomodation a grade A LD2 fire alarm system would be advised, however I feel this would be unfair and the majority of the tenants are not in a position to afford this.

Trying to be objective I have suggested siting 3 standalone detectors in the single stair (a resident appointed to test and maintain them) and an evacuation plan that is agreed by all parties through coordination and cooperation basically to ensure tenants shut doors, raise other occupants and call the brigade. Furthermore all tenants site their own detector in the entrance hall.

The doors to the main stairs are solid timber but with no other passive protection feature.
Due to the construction a stay put policy would not be appropriate.

I was wondering if anyone has a similar experience of this scenario and of any other suggested routes.

Rob

Offline kurnal

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2008, 10:32:26 PM »
If the basement flat has its own independent entrance and exit then what is the relevance to the purchaser of the risk assessment of the other common areas of the building? Perhaps of more relevance would be a survey of the fire separation between the basement and ground floor- and this may not be effectively covered by the risk assessment of the common areas.

Having said that, a risk asssessment should be carried out to comply with the Law and  if  stay put is not an option then there is no alternative but to ensure that the means of escape and fire detection and warning are half decent.

Why should this be unfair? Has the owner of the common areas or the person on the ground floor got the right to put the person on the top floors life at risk by choosing not to install basic safety systems?

Offline nearlythere

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2008, 08:36:07 AM »
It might be of interest to all that in Northern Ireland, either by accident or design, the legislators appear to have excluded this issue.

Fire & Rescue Services (NI) Order 2006 says:-

Section 50 - (1) In this part "relevant premises" means any premises other than-
                        (a) domestic premises;

Paragraph (6) then says:-
                       
                        For the purposes of paragraph (1)-

                           "domestic premises" means premises occcupied as a private dwelling (including a stair,         passage, yard., garden, garage. outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling) but does not include a HMO.

That to my untrained lawyer brain means flats and their common areas are premises excluded from the Order.

Maybe it was an error in the wording and should have meant as it does on the mainland?
Maybe it was done intentionally because of the problems it caused on the mainland?
Maybe I am reading and interpreting it wrong?

What say you?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline PhilB

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2008, 09:23:09 AM »
Quote from: nearlythere
It might be of interest to all that in Northern Ireland, either by accident or design, the legislators appear to have excluded this issue.

Fire & Rescue Services (NI) Order 2006 says:-

Section 50 - (1) In this part "relevant premises" means any premises other than-
                        (a) domestic premises;

Paragraph (6) then says:-
                       
                        For the purposes of paragraph (1)-

                           "domestic premises" means premises occcupied as a private dwelling (including a stair,         passage, yard., garden, garage. outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling) but does not include a HMO.

That to my untrained lawyer brain means flats and their common areas are premises excluded from the Order.

Maybe it was an error in the wording and should have meant as it does on the mainland?
Maybe it was done intentionally because of the problems it caused on the mainland?
Maybe I am reading and interpreting it wrong?

What say you?
The situation is the same with the Scottish legislation, have they got it right or have we got in wrong??

Offline nearlythere

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2008, 09:36:04 AM »
Quote from: PhilB
Quote from: nearlythere
It might be of interest to all that in Northern Ireland, either by accident or design, the legislators appear to have excluded this issue.

Fire & Rescue Services (NI) Order 2006 says:-

Section 50 - (1) In this part "relevant premises" means any premises other than-
                        (a) domestic premises;

Paragraph (6) then says:-
                       
                        For the purposes of paragraph (1)-

                           "domestic premises" means premises occcupied as a private dwelling (including a stair,         passage, yard., garden, garage. outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling) but does not include a HMO.

That to my untrained lawyer brain means flats and their common areas are premises excluded from the Order.

Maybe it was an error in the wording and should have meant as it does on the mainland?
Maybe it was done intentionally because of the problems it caused on the mainland?
Maybe I am reading and interpreting it wrong?

What say you?
The situation is the same with the Scottish legislation, have they got it right or have we got in wrong??
I think the Celtic versions are right, I think, but I can't see Gordon doing another u-turn. He's starting to run out of them.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline CivvyFSO

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2008, 09:52:17 AM »
Makes more sense than the UK way.

Offline peanut

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2008, 12:34:32 PM »
Flats are not HMOs, thus the Northern Ireland legislation would does not differ from the RR(FS)O in this case.

Offline nearlythere

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2008, 01:55:51 PM »
Quote from: peanut
Flats are not HMOs, thus the Northern Ireland legislation would does not differ from the RR(FS)O in this case.
Can't understand your comment Peanuts.
Are you acknowledging that the common escape routes of flats (dwellings) are not relevant premises and HMOs are?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline peanut

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2008, 02:05:27 PM »
To me it sounds like the building being dicussed has been converted into private self-contained flats.  This is different from an HMO, where some facilities are shared (that is a very general definition of an HMO but will do for now, before anyone gets excited).

The usual difference between flats and HMOs from a fire safety perspective is  that flats are seperate fire compartments, and thus a fire in one should not (in theory) affect the others.  Therefore means of escape is based on the occupants of only one flat escaping, whilst the occupants of the others can stay where they are, possible unaware of  the inferno next door.  This is similar to what you would expect for, say, a row of terrace houses.  Each one is a single dwelling in its own right.

With HMOs it is common to have a lower standard for fire resistance, and therefore it is normal for all occupants of  the entire house to escape at once.

So, back to the original point.  The Northern Ireland legislation (I have only quickyl read through it once) seems to dissapply the requirements for a risk assessment to HMOs, but not flats.  Thus in blocks of flats there would still be a requirement for a risk assessment (in the common areas).

The situation where each flat owner has a share of  the freehold has some interesting consequences, which I have had to deal with when working for a client who had an enforcement notice served who was in a similar situation.  Normally there will still be a mangement company (formed of home owners) with a company secretary.  This person would thus be the responsible person.  But the impact of the legislation is that the cost of providing fire safety measures will finally rest with the owners of private homes - certainly not the intention of the legislation.

Offline nearlythere

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2008, 02:24:05 PM »
Quote from: peanut
To me it sounds like the building being dicussed has been converted into private self-contained flats.  This is different from an HMO, where some facilities are shared (that is a very general definition of an HMO but will do for now, before anyone gets excited).

The usual difference between flats and HMOs from a fire safety perspective is  that flats are seperate fire compartments, and thus a fire in one should not (in theory) affect the others.  Therefore means of escape is based on the occupants of only one flat escaping, whilst the occupants of the others can stay where they are, possible unaware of  the inferno next door.  This is similar to what you would expect for, say, a row of terrace houses.  Each one is a single dwelling in its own right.

With HMOs it is common to have a lower standard for fire resistance, and therefore it is normal for all occupants of  the entire house to escape at once.

So, back to the original point.  The Northern Ireland legislation (I have only quickyl read through it once) seems to dissapply the requirements for a risk assessment to HMOs, but not flats.  Thus in blocks of flats there would still be a requirement for a risk assessment (in the common areas).

The situation where each flat owner has a share of  the freehold has some interesting consequences, which I have had to deal with when working for a client who had an enforcement notice served who was in a similar situation.  Normally there will still be a mangement company (formed of home owners) with a company secretary.  This person would thus be the responsible person.  But the impact of the legislation is that the cost of providing fire safety measures will finally rest with the owners of private homes - certainly not the intention of the legislation.
Peanuts.
Article 50 (1) says that Relevant Premises means any premises other than domestic premises, and ships and mines etc.

Article 50 (6) says domestic premises (which are not relevant premises) means premises occupied as a private dwelling including...................................or other appurtenance of such premises which is used by the occupants of more than one such dwelling, but does not include a HMO.

Are you saying that HMOs are not relevant premises and common escape routes from flats are?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline peanut

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2008, 03:03:46 PM »
Er, no, I might have to back track on this one.  On second reading it does sound as though the common areas of flats are domestic, and thus excluded.  But HMOs are included.   Of course, I have no idea what "this Part" refers to in the legislation, and thus to what extent these definitions apply.

Offline nearlythere

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2008, 03:33:52 PM »
Quote from: peanut
Er, no, I might have to back track on this one.  On second reading it does sound as though the common areas of flats are domestic, and thus excluded.  But HMOs are included.   Of course, I have no idea what "this Part" refers to in the legislation, and thus to what extent these definitions apply.
The Part is Part 50 - "Meaning of Relevant Premises"
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Robbie P

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2008, 06:47:05 PM »
Thanks for your comments on this one. Seems the RRO is as clear as mud, yet the legislation is more precise in Scotland and N Ireland.  

Why am I not surprised!!

Offline PhilB

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2008, 07:00:51 PM »
Quote from: Robbie P
Thanks for your comments on this one. Seems the RRO is as clear as mud, yet the legislation is more precise in Scotland and N Ireland.  

Why am I not surprised!!
The Fire Safety Order is very clear on this, common parts of flats and hmos are not domestic premises and therefore covered by the Order.

The situation is different in Scotland and Northern Ireland as their definition of domestic premises includes the common parts.

Offline Big T

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FRA's In private residents
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2008, 10:30:52 AM »
Absolutely PhilB, A fire risk assessment is required to cover the communal areas which in this case will just be the internal staircase and any external fire escapes. From my view no fire alarm will be required, no extinguishers and I would doubt emergency lighting would be required either. If the building was converted in line with modern building regs it is likely that the front doors will be fire rated so would not need upgrade or replacement.

The danger is that if the building was originally tennanted and has recently bee changed to leasehold by the right to buy scheme for example it is highly likely that the Leaseholders will have changed their front door from the original Fire rated item to a standard domestic grade front door. (This isdue to the leaseholder demonstrating to others in the block that they no longer rent their flat and that they now own it, so signpost this with a posh Kentucky style door.)

If this is the case the front doors would need to be replaced with fire rated doors (And as you are doing it now they would require smoke seals)