Stay put policies and fire drills

[Big T]

Getting off topic really. You are talking about Resi care.

Cleveland. If you read 5588 pt 1 section 31.1 (last paragraph) It clearly states that the fire alarm is not supposed to wake or notify residents of a fire. It is it to tell the warden to call the brigade or to call the brigade via auto dialler.This is why I wanted to adjust the evac policy and drill to include everyone getting ready to leave the building to reflect the way I perceive a safer strategy.

The fact that the fire alarms do wake everyone up seems to go against this guidance. Less we forget that in a normal block of flats no alarm is provided. I assumed in sheltered it was to give them a headstart in getting out as they take ages to get dressed etc. Seems its just to get the red water lorry on site a bit quicker...

[nearlythere]

Sorry to take this slightly off topic, but does such evacuation plans cater for fire service industrial action?

I would think Chris that evacuation planning should factor in the non attendance of the F&R Service at any time.

[Username]

But Big T, the guidance for RR(FS)O for Sleeping Accommodation which I think includes sheltered housing states:
"The primary purpose of the automatic fire detection and warning system it to alert occupants/residents to enable them to move away from the fire to a place of total safety while the escape routes are still clear of smoke."

Or are they just refering to common areas?

Interesting that they use the term "total safety", which implies that a stay put policy only applies if you are in your flat, otherwise you should evacuate?

[Midland Retty]

Yes BS 5588 talks about someone taking ownership of calling the fire brigade (i.e; warden or call centre) but to suggest other residents shouldn't be alerted to a blaze occurring worries me.

Normally you will have a single point mains powered detector in each flat plus and a heat detector interlinked with the common fire alarm system.

Clearly if the heat detector does activate you can reasonably assume you have got a sizeable fire on your hands - also by this time the fire brigade should also have been called and well on their way (fire service should be called when the single point detector goes off as tehy are normally monitored too).

Then other residents should be alerted. They must be clothed and ready to go for full evacuation if required.

If you dont warn them and the fire spreads then fire crews will have to start knocking doors to rouse people who may still be in bed - and there will be a delay waiting for them to get clothed and ready to move. You can't have that situation.

So you still have to alerrt others - the heat detector ensures there is a time delay to investigate false alarms etc.

But I mjust stress again you can't guarantee the seperation in these places so a total stay put policy is not feasible. Partial stay put policies are the best - where residents are ready to evacuate if required rather than not react at all.

Also what about people in common areas , should they not be warned of a fire occuring?

[kurnal]

Then other residents should be alerted. They must be clothed and ready to go for full evacuation if required.

Aw Midland your'e a spoilsport. Ruining the best perk of the job.

[Midland Retty]

Then other residents should be alerted. They must be clothed and ready to go for full evacuation if required.

Aw Midland your'e a spoilsport. Ruining the best perk of the job.

Now I recognise that most residents in sheltered schemes will be of a similar age to yourself Prof and thus perhaps attractive to you...

But the sight of a 60 year old plus woman (or man for that matter) in the nip isn't my idea of fun...

I do feel matron should be informed about your perversions - fellow residents maybe at risk... tut tut!

[Davo]

MR

Steady, the Prof ain't that old!

However, I agree Matron must be informed, a change in medication might be in order, especially after those nightmares!

davo

[kurnal]

Looks like its back to the methyl bromide in the extinguishers then. Big breaths. Just like Matron.

[melta]

Need to consider lots of factors and nmot just hypothesise about what is good for auntie betty or the poor care attendant.

That is why we have the RRO and not just casual guidance given in an impromtu manner and when the mood takes to visit a premises.

The ODPA guides emphasise the need for evacuation means to be available, understood and be preacticed - via regular drill - as measured by risk suitable & sufficient risk assessment (many are not worth the paper they are written on). Also the ODPA stresses that we cannot rely on fire service to evacuate premises - how long would it take to get a ladder up to fifty fiorst floor windows and opull the old biddies out for example if it were aserious fire. My evacuation procedure would hopefully save soem of them providing staff are trained and REACT promptly.

There are too many threads where we keep going back to cursory remarks rather than compliance and scientificly-proven risk assessment methods - just my opinion. Most of the advice may seem common sense at the time but one size does not fit all and we should refreain from trying to seek out a single fix whenever a topic is raised.

Personally I would be considering risk of gas leaks, fire spread, amount of combustibles and staffing levels BEFORE I decide to let the young lass keep her folk in bed. Numerous factors like this are easily overlooked which is why we have so many pages in these guides and we should try and take on board all scenarios - not just the first one we can think of.


o

[Midland Retty]

As I mentioned previously I can not think of one sheltered or very sheltered scheme on my patch where staff are on duty evenings or weekends.

Therefore evacuation plans need to address the fact that it is "John Wayne time" for residents at night / weekends and thus ensure that they know what to do in the event of fire - whatever that might be.

[Big T]

So....

If the government decided in their infinite wisdom that no alarm is required in a block of residential flats and that in a block of sheltered flats a fire alarm system should be installed not to wake the block but to wake the person whos flat is on fire and to automatically call the brigade, What methodology is an assessor to use exactly that would steer them in the direction of completely disregarding 5588 pt 1 because they feel they know best?

The sleeping accomodation guide in my opinion does not properly address the issues found in housing and don't get me started on the LACoRS guide. The only real documentation that is properly aimed at housing issues is 5588 pt 1 and the reality is the majority of inspecting officers I have come accross are not familiar (in depth) with this standard.

The buildings are designed to withstand fire and it is highly unlikely that a flat fire would spread via a corridoor if the essential passive protection is in place. So it is highly unlikely that fire services would need to evacuate lots of people via their windows on the first floor.

Whilst I agree fire services should not be required to evacuate Hotels, offices factories etc. The reality is that based on the last 17 years of 5588 pt 1 buildings fire strategy has relied on fire services evacuating (Not rescuig) the residents.

[Davo]

Prof, Dr W

Is that true about matron?
Can I join?
Does 54 qualify me?
(I certainly qualify as bewildered)


davo

[kurnal]

Prof, Dr W

Is that true about matron?
Can I join?
Does 54 qualify me?
(I certainly qualify as bewildered)


davo

Hi Davo
If you mean 54 inch round the waist then you had better keep out of Matrons way. Else you'll be on an exercise regime and it will be you taking  big  breaths

[Davo]

Prof

I'm afraid Mrs Davo has beaten her to it.
Lost a stone ready for my hols in Greece next week
(no booze rather than exercise, there are limits you know)

davo