Author Topic: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant  (Read 5788 times)

Offline kurnal

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First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« on: March 03, 2009, 07:55:37 PM »
I have been asked the following question from another forum- A small scale amateur biodiesel conversion plant takes waste chip shop oil, processes it at 65 deg with methanol and caustic soda, produces diesel and glycerin as outputs. What first aid fire fighting equipment should they provide? Thats all I have to go on.

First aid fire fighting equipment to cover small fires that may arise as a result of spillages would be a good idea- whilst the MSDS for methanol recommends alcohol resistant foam or water mist I am inclined to make a recommendation based on the mixed fire risk environment - perhaps recommend class ABC dry powder say 266B  based on the volume of methanol (25 litres)? I know some of these substances have toxicolity and environmental issues as well but I have just been asked about fire.

Any opinions welcome.

Midland Retty

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Re: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 05:15:59 PM »
Hi Prof

It depends. Based firmly on the information you have given alcohol resistant foam would be my preferred firefighting medium.  Whilst it is a mixed fire risk environment my biggest concern would be the methanol initially.

Im not totally familiar with the process, but I do know that the solvation of caustic soda can be exothermic promoting flammables to ignite. So you could have a situation whereby the oil / diesel / methnol mix is alight!

Dry powder will deal with methanol, but is less effective on diesel!

Telling your granny to suck eggs here but the smoothering and cooling effect of the foam makes it more suitable and effective on most of the substances youve listed in this example! There can be the possibility of re-ignition with dry powder
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 05:18:10 PM by Midland Retty »

Offline Paul

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Re: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 05:39:34 PM »
Hi Kurnal,

Having worked on a Large Pharma Process site where they have both bulk methanol and diesel, the way I would go with those quantaties is with a AFFF foam extinguisher or if its possible a foammaster extinguisher for the diesel.

You may not of heard of foammaster’s these are essentially a 9 litre size extinguisher that is full of Alcohol resistant  concentrate.  There are then connected to a standard hose reel connection and the head cap fitting inducts the foam at 6% giving far more foam than your standard AFFF extinguisher. 

ABC powders are good for methanol as they have a far quicker nock down, however as you know no cooling, therefore having fire points with this combination is where I would go.  Similarly, if you have a solvent spill you can put a foam cap on to suppress the flammable vapours.

Sorry, I know you know all this, just a pennys worth.

If your interested in the foam master I could get the info regarding all the fittings, you could, if you want even pop to the site to see them in action if your interested, as your not too far (Macclesfield).

Cheers

Paul

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2009, 06:30:55 PM »
To understand the problem you need to understand the flash and fire point of each substance. For Diesel the flash point is 62 deg C (but this depends on the type of diesel and in actual fact the flash range varies) and methanol is 11 deg C. What are the fire points? You wont find a definitive answer anywhere and Ive always based the fire point to be a few degrees higher than the flash point when such data is unavailable. So already by using a heating process at 65 degrees your cauldron could ignite without much effort. Once ignited there is masses of fuel and heat in place to sustain combustion ( dependant on how much chip oil has turned into derv). Dry Powder will remove the oxygen but not the heat so you will probably get re-ignition. DP is ok on methanol but I find AR Foam just as good as it also dilutes the fuel. Look out for other factors. You may recall a trick they used to do at the Fire Service College. They tried to ignite a tank of diesel with a lit wand... nothing would happen. But when they added an absorbant such as sand it would readily ignite. Is there anything in involved in the process which is semi absorbant and could thus contribute?






Offline kurnal

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Re: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2009, 07:32:00 AM »
I dont know any more but thanks to all for the advice, lets remember that this is first aid firefighting equipment to stop a little fire becoming a big one - the operator would be best advised to to leave a serious fire to the experts - or failing that to the fire brigade ;)

Online AnthonyB

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Re: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2009, 11:41:38 PM »
What do you want?

1) Rapid knockdown?

or

2) Security against reignition?

For (1) you have Dry powder, either a high MAP content ABC or if you want serious power BC's such as Purple K or Monnex, all in 9 kg (8 for Monnex). The highest rating you can now get under EN3 is 233B, meaning that the advantage of these agents isn't a seasily apparent (under BS5423 they would have been 296B).

Of course you risk re-ignition or flash back and if there is equipment that could shield easy access to any pooled liquid you could end up chasing the fire around in circles until your extinguisher runs out (unless you work in a pair). Practical training experience would preferred (and not on a basic LPG rig) - if you want to see why then look on Youtube at some US motor racing footage - in one good clip a mere 20-odd litres of methanol on fire defied the attempts of the (poorly trained) crash crew despite using four 5 & 10lb, three 20lb & one 150lb skid mount powder & a 10lb CO2 extinguisher.

For (2) you want the good old Foam branchpipe extinguisher with AFFF-AR or better FFFP-AR. You can extinguish in stages, don't have the 'all or nothing' problem of powder and good security against reignition. Of course it's slower, you may need more of them (remember the old 5306-3 Class B calculations with foam being grouped in three's?) and if you're fire is flowing you are in trouble.

In essence there's no one 'best' answer - each has it's pro's & con's. The nearest to best is dual agent, with Powder for initial knock-down, followed by foam for security as used in the UK Motorsport field (the 2x4 approach, or is it 4x2, can't remember which way round at this time of night!)


Your typical extinguisher company would just bung a 6 kg ABC in of whatever flavour they are selling at the time & leave them to it - in which case, 'get out-get the fire brigade out-stay out' is best.

Turning things on their head they could have a policy of immediate evacuation for all spill fires and just have a CO2 in case it's just the equipment or control boards going up.

You don't hear much about the Foam-master these days - invented over 30 years ago by Pyrene/Chubb, initially only on low expansion, but the recent equivalent also exists with a MX branch. Available with fittings for buliding or vehicle small bore hose reels it hold enough FP, AFFF or AFFF-AR to give it the same amount of finished foam as 20 nine litre Foam Branchpipe extinguishers - aimed more to industries (or small airfields) with a formal fire team or brigade.
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Offline kurnal

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Re: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2009, 12:25:13 PM »
Thanks to everybody for your helpful contributions. I reckon that in this case, for the  sole operator of the site and  in order to  apply first aid firefighting to a small incident without undue personal risk, the quick knockdown of powder is the best bet. If it is a major incident, working on his own, he would be best advised to hot foot it to the phone and call  the brigade.


Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2009, 12:49:40 PM »
Just as a side note Kurnal, don't forget article 16:

Subject to paragraph (4), in the event of a fire arising from an accident, incident or emergency related to the presence of a dangerous substance in or on the premises, the responsible person must ensure that—

(a) immediate steps are taken to—

(i) mitigate the effects of the fire;


Looking at paragraph 4:

(4) Paragraphs (1) to (3) do not apply where—

(a) the results of the risk assessment show that, because of the quantity of each dangerous substance in or on the premises, there is only a slight risk to relevant persons; and

(b) the measures taken by the responsible person to comply with his duty under article 12 are sufficient to control that risk.


So I would be tempted to make a good record of the procedures, just really so that it stands up to scrutiny and it proves that the risk has really been assessed and relevant persons are not being put at risk by the operator walking away from the incident.




Offline Peter Wilkinson

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Re: First aid fire fighting equipment for small biodiesel plant
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 01:58:46 PM »
I hope it's not too late, but I'll send you a document you may find useful to your private address.
(all the stuff I said above is purely my own personal view and in no way represents any official view of my employer)