Regulations "Map"?

[davidandrewsuk]

Sorry for being greedy and posting two topics in one day!!!

But....

I'm finding the numerous regulations difficult to follow in respects of heirachy of precidence.

I was wondering if theres a map anywhere online which explains it all.

E.g Which takes priorty RRO or DSEAR? And seeing as DSEAR is an expansion of the Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999(Management Regulations) Hows that figure into the RRO.

Im sure this is the same for other areas of fire safety where certain regulations affect the main RRO?

By Map i means like some spider diagram or something like we all used to do in school.

Maybe someone with a little too much knowledge could sketch one ?

Dave

[Mushy]

From what I've read on here they are two separate entities and I'm not sure if 'priorities' come into it but I think the Fire Risk Assessment has to take into consideration the seperate H&S inspection recommendations

But I'm sure other more learned chaps will be along to put the record straight

[kurnal]

I dont see that there is an order of priority as such in terms of a hierarchy.

Article 12 of the RRO applies as does DSEAR. Both need to work in tandem. Until the DSEAR risk assessment is completed and the risk control measures and residual risk identified then the fire risk assessment under the RRO cannot be completed or reviewed.

The only difference between the RRO  and any other aspect of the H&S Legislation is that article 47 of the RRO dissaplies HASAW and other H&S Regulations BUT ONLY IN SO FAR AS  those regulations may otherwise have a bearing on the general fire precautions covered by the RRO.  
As the RRO does not address process risks then the two sit in tandem. To suggest a hierarchy may exist is to suggest a chicken and egg situation.

Consider it more like spokes in a wheel, constantly turning,  each spoke making its individual contribution to the strength of the wheel, if a spoke breaks the wheel collapses and the wheel stops turning.

[nearlythere]

I dont see that there is an order of priority as such in terms of a hierarchy.

Article 12 of the RRO applies as does DSEAR. Both need to work in tandem. Until the DSEAR risk assessment is completed and the risk control measures and residual risk identified then the fire risk assessment under the RRO cannot be completed or reviewed.

The only difference between the RRO  and any other aspect of the H&S Legislation is that article 47 of the RRO dissaplies HASAW and other H&S Regulations BUT ONLY IN SO FAR AS  those regulations may otherwise have a bearing on the general fire precautions covered by the RRO.  
As the RRO does not address process risks then the two sit in tandem. To suggest a hierarchy may exist is to suggest a chicken and egg situation.

Consider it more like spokes in a wheel, constantly turning,  each spoke making its individual contribution to the strength of the wheel, if a spoke breaks the wheel collapses and the wheel stops turning.

Kurnal. Would you not consider that regardless of the DSEAR assessment being undertaken or not he still has a duty to undertake a FRA under RRO?  Could the FRA find that an assessment under DSEAR should be carried out. The duties under RRO are then complied with.

[kurnal]

Yes but neither is more important than the other. The RRO risk assessment cannot be competent if it does not take account of the residual risk following the completion of the DSEAR assessment. Otherwise we could end up with an uncontrolled an explosive atmosphere.

In the case you describe there would be a need to review the fire risk assessment immediately on completion of the DSEAR assessment

[wee brian]

It's simple these days.  for everything you must do a risk assessment and take reasonable steps to reduce the risks.

It doesnt really matter what legislation applies.

[afterburner]

Kurnal, an excellent 'take' on legisaltion 'hierarchy'.
The only shadow cast here is the frequent allegation that an RP folows one legislative platform only to find others apply, DSEAR and the DDA being the two which spring to mind, but there are obviously others. Whilst the 'clean up' of fire safety legislation has removed some of this, not every RP understands the other spokes are needing attention too. That is where the Fire Assessor can be instrumental in advising the RP what else needs to addressed.

[PhilB]

The FRS previously enforced parts of DSEAR but when the Fire Safety Order(FSO) (please don't call it the RRO!!) came into force the situation changed.

FRS now no longer need to enforce DSEAR as the releveant sections of DSEAR were cut and pasted into the FSO Order.

As has been correctly pointed out both are equally as important but because DSEAR is a relevant statutory provision of HASAW Act it is dissapplied if the matters can be dealt with under The FSO.......but as the FSO only deals with general fire precautions and not process fire precautions in many places both pieces of legislation will apply.

There is therefore a need for the relevant enforcing authorities to report matters of evident concern to other enforcing authorities if they notice problems that are outside the scope of their legislation.


.....anarok off.

[nearlythere]

The FRS previously enforced parts of DSEAR but when the Fire Safety Order(FSO) (please don't call it the RRO!!) came into force the situation changed.

FRS now no longer need to enforce DSEAR as the releveant sections of DSEAR were cut and pasted into the FSO Order.

As has been correctly pointed out both are equally as important but because DSEAR is a relevant statutory provision of HASAW Act it is dissapplied if the matters can be dealt with under The FSO.......but as the FSO only deals with general fire precautions and not process fire precautions in many places both pieces of legislation will apply.

There is therefore a need for the relevant enforcing authorities to report matters of evident concern to other enforcing authorities if they notice problems that are outside the scope of their legislation.


.....anarok off.

Is that the same as

"Kurnal. Would you not consider that regardless of the DSEAR assessment being undertaken or not he still has a duty to undertake a FRA under RRO?  Could the FRA find that an assessment under DSEAR should be carried out. The duties under RRO are then complied with."

[PhilB]

The FRS previously enforced parts of DSEAR but when the Fire Safety Order(FSO) (please don't call it the RRO!!) came into force the situation changed.

FRS now no longer need to enforce DSEAR as the releveant sections of DSEAR were cut and pasted into the FSO Order.

As has been correctly pointed out both are equally as important but because DSEAR is a relevant statutory provision of HASAW Act it is dissapplied if the matters can be dealt with under The FSO.......but as the FSO only deals with general fire precautions and not process fire precautions in many places both pieces of legislation will apply.

There is therefore a need for the relevant enforcing authorities to report matters of evident concern to other enforcing authorities if they notice problems that are outside the scope of their legislation.


.....anarok off.

Is that the same as

"Kurnal. Would you not consider that regardless of the DSEAR assessment being undertaken or not he still has a duty to undertake a FRA under RRO?  Could the FRA find that an assessment under DSEAR should be carried out. The duties under RRO are then complied with."

no, clearly not...........and it's not the RRO!!!!!

[Martin]

Typically from an enforcement view a specific requirement or set of regulations should be applied rather than a general requirement. If the problem was adressed in  DSEAR and enforcement was attempted under RRO the defendant could argue and probably succeed with argument that Parliament would not have left specific DSEAR in place if they intended general RRO to be relevant.

Similar to machinery guarding in H&S. General legislation at first sight seems to cover this but we have specific Provison and use of Work Equipment regs.  and this is the correct legal remedy not general H&S law.

[nearlythere]

The FRS previously enforced parts of DSEAR but when the Fire Safety Order(FSO) (please don't call it the RRO!!) came into force the situation changed.

FRS now no longer need to enforce DSEAR as the releveant sections of DSEAR were cut and pasted into the FSO Order.

As has been correctly pointed out both are equally as important but because DSEAR is a relevant statutory provision of HASAW Act it is dissapplied if the matters can be dealt with under The FSO.......but as the FSO only deals with general fire precautions and not process fire precautions in many places both pieces of legislation will apply.

There is therefore a need for the relevant enforcing authorities to report matters of evident concern to other enforcing authorities if they notice problems that are outside the scope of their legislation.


.....anarok off.

Is that the same as

"Kurnal. Would you not consider that regardless of the DSEAR assessment being undertaken or not he still has a duty to undertake a FRA under RRO?  Could the FRA find that an assessment under DSEAR should be carried out. The duties under RRO are then complied with."

no, clearly not...........and it's not the RRO!!!!!

"FRS now no longer need to enforce DSEAR as the releveant sections of DSEAR were cut and pasted into the FSO Order."
Who enforces it then?

[PhilB]

"FRS now no longer need to enforce DSEAR as the releveant sections of DSEAR were cut and pasted into the FSO Order."


Who enforces it then?

The HSE or the local authority, as with all relevant statutory provisions of HASAW Act

[nearlythere]

"FRS now no longer need to enforce DSEAR as the releveant sections of DSEAR were cut and pasted into the FSO Order."


Who enforces it then?

The HSE or the local authority, as with all relevant statutory provisions of HASAW Act

So if an employer has a DSEAR situation he cannot carry out his statutory obligation under FSO until he carries out his statutory obligation under DSEAR?

[PhilB]

So if an employer has a DSEAR situation he cannot carry out his statutory obligation under FSO until he carries out his statutory obligation under DSEAR?

Not necessarily, if the process risk did not affect the general fire precautions he may well be complying with the Order but failing to comply with DSEAR.

but this scenario is highly unlikely as process fire precautions will usually have a bearing on general fire precautions.