Smoke detection in hospital ceiling voids

[kurnal]

Don't jump on me as I am not an expert on HTM 05-03, and I don't claim to be.
How ever I quote Executive Summery of HTM 05-03 "It is intended to supplement BS 5839-1 by providing recommendations specific to NHS healthcare premises." not to totally rip up BS5839.

It also goes on to say, "However, the onus rests with the designer to ensure that any other form of fire detection selected ensures that the principles of early detection and warning are maintained, whilst minimising the risk of unwanted fire calls and not compromising the safety of building occupants.

I can not see how a sweeping statement that void detection is not required in hospitals can be anything other than compromising early detection.

Looking at it another way Thomas perhaps the HTM is moving away from a rather prescriptive approach in 5839 (if its deeper than 800 mm it needs a detector and if its less it doesnt)  to a specific risk assessment of all voids to see if in that particular case a detector is warranted or not.

So the outcome is that detectors are provided where the risk warrants it and not where it doesnt. I would worry about this approach in many sectors where fire alarm systems are so often not properly designed and there is next to no communication and co-ordination between the disciplines working on the project,   but at least most hospitals are designed with proper care and attention to detail.

[Galeon]

We are seeing more of this type of so called engineering risk solution , personally I wouldnt get to hyped up about it . As long as you quantify this action within your paperwork you are covered.
Well insured , he needs to be , same old story its fine to it goes t*ts up , and the Spanish Inquisition arrives , I am surprised that the hospital itself doesn't take stance on this , they know from old the implications in these buildings.
However if its a rent the building back job , they may have a different view.

[Colin Newman]

Eloquently put Kurnal.

Thomas, I apologise if my earlier reply seemed brusque.  I was merely trying to point out that HTM 05-03 Part B refines the recommendations of BS 5839 Part 1 L1 categories in hospitals, hence despite the L1 category of detection, ceiling void detection may be omitted.

[Colin Newman]

Galeon, are you suggesting a bum covering exercise?  Or that the Trust would take a different view if it were their building rather than one they rented?

Surely the entire process of risk management is all about making reasoned judgements and not about blindly following a process 'cos it says it in a book! Especially when that book was written by persons that haven't even seen the building or the design details for its construction.  

There appears to be some sort of inane logic that is being purveyed by some of the die hards that if the book says and mokey does then monkey is safe, but if monkey doesn't do as the book says we're all doomed and monkey better have a good lawyer!

What if monkey wrote the book?  Is monkey imune from disaster if monkey does what monkey wrote? Or perhaps the whole idea is bananas!

[Galeon]

Galeon, are you suggesting a bum covering exercise?  Or that the Trust would take a different view if it were their building rather than one they rented?

No Colin , what I am referring to is the amount of input a trust might might not have when it comes to this type of building, my main point is if you read the whole topic is that a decision has been made above and person(s) don't agree in their view it is not necessarily the way to go.
Someone has made a decision on the way forward ,and as far I see takes the responsibility for the process .
We do encounter  scenerios when it suits that BS is after all recommendations . and I hear that quite regularly.
The whole point is to use BS in a manner of common sense , and you will find by default most of it is based upon solid judgement , you however also have to apply good engineering pratice.
One for the road , can you get animal friendly sounders , for our new extension , I didnt know that was in the spec , it isnt and we dont do that type of testing , but can you get these for this part of the installation.