BS5839-1 and 6 Competent person.

[David Rooney]

As the owner of a BAFE accredited company with 22 years trading, I think we are competent persons , all engineers having many years vocational training. Unfortunately in this age of box ticking, years of experience is not proof of competence and is not an acceptable means of measure or judgement of ability for others to assess competence by. The only practical method is that of third party accreditation.
Unfortunately, we who are conscientious and competent and have the prescribed third party accreditation to prove it, are only proving our abilities to other FA companies i.e. those parties who are aware of the schemes.  Until the RRO fire safety order is amended to include the statement that design, installation, commissioning and maintenance of FA systems can only be carried out by TPA companies in the way the gas industry with CORGI does, then we are piddling in the wind.
Who other than a bona-fide FA company even knows about BAFE? BAFE muste wake up and spend some of its fee income on propmoting  itself and TPA in general.

Jim, I'd generally agree. But I know engineers with decades of experience who have also been doing it wrong for decades..... Experience isn't the "be all and end all"....

I know sparks who always install 6mm cable to cookers "cos that's the way it's always been done" regardless of the loading or diversity...

Your right about the RRO but then generally I find the majority of our clients still don't know its full implications, just that they (if you are lucky) are supposed to do a risk assessment.

There does need to be independent training and assessment, which should perhaps be "refreshed" each time the BS is re-written in the same way sparks have to do a city and guilds each time the electrical regs are revised.
 

[Thomas Brookes]

It is a bit like ISO9000, having the certificate does not mean you are doing it correctly, it just means you are doing the same every time.

I personally would to see a independant exam on Design, Installation, Maintenance & commissioning and then a refresher course every three years. The same as is in fire extinguishers. It would not matter who does your training if you have to sit an independant exam afterwards.

[Benzerari]

IMO there has been an awful lot of sensible comments made and a similar amount of rubbish spoken here.
As the owner of a BAFE accredited company with 22 years trading, I think we are competent persons , all engineers having many years vocational training. Unfortunately in this age of box ticking, years of experience is not proof of competence and is not an acceptable means of measure or judgement of ability for others to assess competence by. The only practical method is that of third party accreditation.
Unfortunately, we who are conscientious and competent and have the prescribed third party accreditation to prove it, are only proving our abilities to other FA companies i.e. those parties who are aware of the schemes.  Until the RRO fire safety order is amended to include the statement that design, installation, commissioning and maintenance of FA systems can only be carried out by TPA companies in the way the gas industry with CORGI does, then we are piddling in the wind.
Who other than a bona-fide FA company even knows about BAFE? BAFE muste wake up and spend some of its fee income on propmoting  itself and TPA in general.
Finally an off topic comment, I look at this forum quite often and occasionally subscribe but I am amazed at some of the questions asked particularly by senior members, their ignorance and naivety is unbelievable. If this is an indication of the industries level of competency, then the sooner the suggestions in my bleatings are implemented the better.
?? New Topic ??  how about a boycott of the BSI until their pricing and charging policy is reviewed.

Freedom of expression Jim, that's good and well done;

If you spend more time in this forum you will enjoy it, no matter how much you know or you don't... Down to earth, I support what Buzz and Wiz have said, the forum is for every body..., I personally came late to this industry comparing to other members…, but I have learnt from THEM so many things I have learnt from: Kurnal, Chris, Grame, Buzz, Wiz, Colins and Johns, Galeon, Afterburner, Nearelythere, Dave, Tom, Retty, Davo, Arckangel... etc, and the list is still open and sorry for not mentioning every body... , even a senior member can say: ‘I don’t know’, even a senior member can ask in basic and obvious things, that’s what gave dynamism to this forum… we all live to serve in a friendly manner, it doesn't matter of how much you know or you don't …   

[nearlythere]

IMO there has been an awful lot of sensible comments made and a similar amount of rubbish spoken here.
As the owner of a BAFE accredited company with 22 years trading, I think we are competent persons , all engineers having many years vocational training. Unfortunately in this age of box ticking, years of experience is not proof of competence and is not an acceptable means of measure or judgement of ability for others to assess competence by. The only practical method is that of third party accreditation.
Unfortunately, we who are conscientious and competent and have the prescribed third party accreditation to prove it, are only proving our abilities to other FA companies i.e. those parties who are aware of the schemes.  Until the RRO fire safety order is amended to include the statement that design, installation, commissioning and maintenance of FA systems can only be carried out by TPA companies in the way the gas industry with CORGI does, then we are piddling in the wind.
Who other than a bona-fide FA company even knows about BAFE? BAFE muste wake up and spend some of its fee income on propmoting  itself and TPA in general.
Finally an off topic comment, I look at this forum quite often and occasionally subscribe but I am amazed at some of the questions asked particularly by senior members, their ignorance and naivety is unbelievable. If this is an indication of the industries level of competency, then the sooner the suggestions in my bleatings are implemented the better.
?? New Topic ??  how about a boycott of the BSI until their pricing and charging policy is reviewed.

Freedom of expression Jim, that's good and well done;

If you spend more time in this forum you will enjoy it, no matter how much you know or you don't... Down to earth, I support what Buzz and Wiz have said, the forum is for every body..., I personally came late to this industry comparing to other members…, but I have learnt from THEM so many things I have learnt from: Kurnal, Chris, Grame, Buzz, Wiz, Colins and Johns, Galeon, Afterburner, Nearelythere, Dave, Tom, Retty, Davo, Arckangel... etc, and the list is still open and sorry for not mentioning every body... , even a senior member can say: ‘I don’t know’, even senior member can ask in basic and obvious things, that’s what gave dynamism to this forum… we all leave to serve in a friendly manner, it doesn't matter of how much you know or you don't …   

And indeed we have all learned a lot from Benz, e.g. the origins of the cosmos, intergalactic hyperdrives, how do they get the non stick coating to stick to frying pans etc.

[Benzerari]

IMO there has been an awful lot of sensible comments made and a similar amount of rubbish spoken here.
As the owner of a BAFE accredited company with 22 years trading, I think we are competent persons , all engineers having many years vocational training. Unfortunately in this age of box ticking, years of experience is not proof of competence and is not an acceptable means of measure or judgement of ability for others to assess competence by. The only practical method is that of third party accreditation.
Unfortunately, we who are conscientious and competent and have the prescribed third party accreditation to prove it, are only proving our abilities to other FA companies i.e. those parties who are aware of the schemes.  Until the RRO fire safety order is amended to include the statement that design, installation, commissioning and maintenance of FA systems can only be carried out by TPA companies in the way the gas industry with CORGI does, then we are piddling in the wind.
Who other than a bona-fide FA company even knows about BAFE? BAFE muste wake up and spend some of its fee income on propmoting  itself and TPA in general.
Finally an off topic comment, I look at this forum quite often and occasionally subscribe but I am amazed at some of the questions asked particularly by senior members, their ignorance and naivety is unbelievable. If this is an indication of the industries level of competency, then the sooner the suggestions in my bleatings are implemented the better.
?? New Topic ??  how about a boycott of the BSI until their pricing and charging policy is reviewed.

Freedom of expression Jim, that's good and well done;

If you spend more time in this forum you will enjoy it, no matter how much you know or you don't... Down to earth, I support what Buzz and Wiz have said, the forum is for every body..., I personally came late to this industry comparing to other members…, but I have learnt from THEM so many things I have learnt from: Kurnal, Chris, Grame, Buzz, Wiz, Colins and Johns, Galeon, Afterburner, Nearelythere, Dave, Tom, Retty, Davo, Arckangel... etc, and the list is still open and sorry for not mentioning every body... , even a senior member can say: ‘I don’t know’, even senior member can ask in basic and obvious things, that’s what gave dynamism to this forum… we all leave to serve in a friendly manner, it doesn't matter of how much you know or you don't …   

And indeed we have all learned a lot from Benz, e.g. the origins of the cosmos, intergalactic hyperdrives, how do they get the non stick coating to stick to frying pans etc.

   

[jim]

Passionate replies all but some a little off target in a number of ways.

I did state that years of experience means nothing if those years have been spent doing things wrong and that we have to ensure that there is a bench mark by which everyone can be judged, not by ourselves otherwise we would all get top marks but by others, T.P.A.
The industry is in a state of flux but needing rapid crystallisation and direction.

Safety is the name of our game, safety of others but when Ivan O’level the loca ;)l spark offers to install the F/A in the three story care home in which he’s working because he can run cable and has worked on lots of fire alarms even did one in his local chippy, well the flat above, and he’s cheaper than ADT / GENTS and course he’ll give an installation certificate Oh! And a commissioning certificate because he’s done them too, and can get them off the interweb, then that is a recipe for disaster.

Make TPA compulsory, accredit, test, assess  by any method you want but for goodness sake we must preserve our business and besides there’s a new ‘S’ Class out and I need the Nectar points.
 

[Thomas Brookes]

Im sure ive met theat sparky in my area, does he use lighting cable all round !!

[Graeme]

he gets around because i have met him too...

[David Rooney]

 spark offers to install the F/A in the three story care home in which he’s working because he can run cable and has worked on lots of fire alarms even did one in his local chippy,

Was his name Elvis ??

 

[kurnal]

 spark offers to install the F/A in the three story care home in which he’s working because he can run cable and has worked on lots of fire alarms even did one in his local chippy,

Was his name Elvis ??

Showing your age now David

[colin todd]

Wrong Elvis kurnal-- not a lot of music culture in the east mids F&RS was there? The elvis at the chip shop was that of Kirsty Mac Coll. You will see her with the Pogues a lot over the next few days.

[kurnal]

Wrong Elvis kurnal-- not a lot of music culture in the east mids F&RS was there? The elvis at the chip shop was that of Kirsty Mac Coll. You will see her with the Pogues a lot over the next few days.

Yes indeed Colin. I danced to it im my youth, whereas you no doubt remember watching your grand children do the same.
On a sad note its eight years this week  since she was hit by a speedboat and killed killed while swimming off the coast of Mexico,  She was just 41.

"But he's a liar and Im not sure about you."