Ops Workplace Assessment

[jjr]

We are currently sending WMB's onto incidents to carryout workplace assessment, where the attending officer is in development that assessor will proceed on blue lights.

This is only during normal working hours.

What are other fire service currently doing, if anything?

[docfin]

Be interesting to hear the case for the defence when they have a prang.
"Tell me watch manager B, what was the nature of the emergency you were attending when you ran over the old lady after you went through the red light".

[dave bev]

jjr - where? there are issues!

docfin - fbu members are advised not to proceed through red lights (though in reality perhaps something else happens?) - we also support not knocking down old ladies under any circumstances (oh and everyone else too!)


dave bev

[docfin]

dave bev
I think the issue is obvious, brigades that encourage personnel to drive to an incident in order to carry out an assessment of an individual are clearly not complying with the "intent" of the act where it states that the vehicle may proceed through a red light "for the purposes etc". Although I will obviously defer to you if if you know the legal case for encouraging this.
The "intention" of the act is to allow emergency vehicles to arrive at an incident in time to render effective assistance, not for assessors to get to the incident to look at how the job is being run.
In the event of an accident the driver would be left to swing in the wind by the union and we all know that the employers will not do much more.
Brigades rely on a legal opinion which says that they "probably" will be exempt but this would have to be established by a case coming to court.(I dont have the document to hand but I am sure someone will oblige)
The problem is that drivers are left in a difficult moral dilema.
On one hand the union is saying dont go through for reasons which are quite understandable but you have to admit do not reflect what the members actualy want to do. (in 16 years as a driver I have never once been to a shout where the driver stopped and waited for the lights to change to green) on the other hand the employers use a legal "opinion" to hoodwink drivers into thinking that the legal right is absolute in law and the red light can be used as a give way sign in instances where there is a distinct blurring of the case to say what is an emergency and what is not. And sending an assessor to an incident is clearly not an emergency.

Right. After that I think I need to go lie down for a bit.

[jjr]

I hear the LFB are sending another fire appliance to assist the IC when they are "in development" is this the case, if so how would th responding appliance driver stand if that very same old lady were to be knocked over?  

And if we do not send anyone to assist the IC who is learning the ropes how are we to know if he is managing incidents correctly?

[Billy]

jjr

Firstly, at least LFB are ensuring that their personnel are being trained and supported in relation to managing incidents.

I don't know if I could justify sending another appliance as I would prefer to give the OIC sufficient training and assess them prior to them being in the position as it would work out cheaper and be more aligned to best value but I admit this is what I would do in an ideal world and we all know this is over simplifying the issue.

My answer to this problem would be assessment at regular intervals and FRS training personnel prior to them taking up the position- something that was highlighted by the National training strategy group 10 years ago!!!

I still don't understand why some FRS would not allow Firefighters to go on appliances unless they had been trained on certain aspects, but OICs can be in charge of appliances, equipment and personnel and have either received no training at all on Incident Management, or no training for a large number of years!

[messy]

JJR

Since rank to role, it is possible to have a CM in charge of a station.

London's PDAs require a WM on all property fire and serious SS calls, such as RTA & Chemicals.

Therefore, if in the event of (say) a property fire call, obviously the 2 nearest pumps would be sent. IF neither of those has a WM riding, then a 3rd pump with the nearest WM would be despatced on the bell, in a 'supervisory' role.

This would happen in any situation where the initial PDA was lacking a WM, whether the CMs involved were in development or had 30 years in the job/role.

WM leave is now arranged in groups (aka clusters) of 4 or so stations in an attempt to secure the local availibility of WMs at all times.

Hope this answers your query