Are water based extinguishers safe to use on live electrical equipment?

[nim]

Not as daft as it sounds.

This is to do with water based extinguishers which have passed the dielectric test.

 I have always thought that extinguishers that had passed the 35kv dielectric test were only for inadvertant use on electrical equipment and should not be sited for deliberate use on electrical equipment.

Over the years I have occassionally come across 6Litre Foam Spray extinguishers which have had the electrical flash on them meaning as I understand it that they would be suitable for deliberate use on electrical equipment. I have always condemned them.

Came across a UK Firemaster Blazex 6Litre Foam recently with the electrical flash. Rang UK Firemaster who said yes perfectly acceptable to use on live electrical equipment although common sense should prevail. and there Technical Information sheet confirms.

http://www.ukfire.co.uk/shares/extinguishers/doc13.pdf

As I understand it, it should also say that it is safe to use up to 1000v at a distance of 1m.

The trouble with common sense is that most users of extinguishers don't know that Foam Extinguishers are water based and often they actually think that they are suitable for electrical equipment. I have just found out that they were right all along.

For me I shall still condemn them unless BS 5306 Part 8 starts telling me that they can be sited for deliberate electrical use.

[John Webb]

It's interesting to note that the latest (17th Edition) of the 'Wiring Regulations' (BS7671:2008) now requires Residual Current Devices (RCDs) in circuits that supply sockets rated at 20Amps or less provided for general use. The exceptions are for circuits used by skilled or instructed persons or a socket marked for use with a specific item of equipment.

I looked at the use of AFFF spray extinguishers for use in London Transport trains some years ago, and had to point out to them that while the operator might be safe while using the extinguisher, the 'ponding' of the agent in possible contact with live electrical equipment/wiring would be a considerable hazard.

[kurnal]

For me I shall still condemn them unless BS 5306 Part 8 starts telling me that they can be sited for deliberate electrical use.

I know you are technically correct Nim but this seems a little extreme  to me? Would it not be acceptable to train the staff that despite the electrical symbol the extinguishers are NOT to be used in proximity to electrical equipment or on live equipment? And perhaps to obliterate the symbol?  I recollect the happy days at Moreton spraying water from the hose lines onto the 30kv power lines to prove a point. ( quite what the point was I am not sure but it never did us any harm did it (twitch twitch)

[nim]

Would it not be acceptable to train the staff that despite the electrical symbol the extinguishers are NOT to be used in proximity to electrical equipment or on live equipment?

Do this day in, day out. But the pictograms are there for a reason and for those that are dyslexic and can't read "Foam" or "CO2"?

And perhaps to obliterate the symbol?

We aren't allowed to obliterate any of the manufacturers markings accidentally or on purpose.

  I recollect the happy days at Moreton spraying water from the hose lines onto the 30kv power lines to prove a point. ( quite what the point was I am not sure but it never did us any harm did it (twitch twitch)

For me the difference is that you are trained and the majority of users are not. You know not to touch the puddle of water or foam while it is in contact with 30kv. The majority of users of the extinguisher would not.

[AnthonyB]

I can understand your issues, but condemning extinguishers for this reason alone is very debatable practice - the equipment to which you refer is fully compliant with BSEN3 and everything - including the labels - passed the BSI kite-marking test as the UK Fire and Ex-celsius range using these are kitemarked with Ex-celsius being further described in literature as safe directly on electrical equipment up to 1000V from a distance of 1m.

The 'lightning flash' symbol is peculiar to the UK and other European countries only use symbols A-D wit ha descriptor and it's not uncommon for both water additive as well as Powder & CO2 to be clearly marked as safe up to 1000V from a distance of 1m.

The 1m being the key factor to avoid pooling.

From 1990 BR replaced it's Halon & phased our it's 8 litre water with 0.9, 1.75 & 7.5L TG AFFF extinguishers even where the risk was specifically high voltage electrics.

Advising your user as to the pitfalls of use on electrics is one thing but condemning perfectly legal, serviceable & compliant extinguishers is another and a gross overreaction that could lead to accusations of chasing sales, you aren't part of L*nd*n S*curiti*s now are you?

Condemning should only be for:
i.   corrosion, wear or damage to threads of any pressure retaining part
ii.   corrosion of welds
iii.   extensive general corrosion or severe pitting;
iv.   significant dents or gouges in the body
v.   fire damage to the body or body fittings
vi.   any split in a plastics lining, or any significant bubbling or lifting from the metal of a plastics lining
vii.   corrosion of the metal body under a plastics lining
viii.   corrosion of the metal body under a zinc or tin/lead lining

You could go for not maintained as obsolete, but do they fall under:
i.   chemical foam extinguishers
ii.   soda acid extinguishers
iii.   extinguishers with a riveted body shell
iv.   extinguishers with a plastics body shell
v.   extinguishers that require inversion to operate
vi.   non-refillable extinguishers that have reached their expiry date
vii.   extinguishers for which parts are no longer available and servicing cannot be completed
viii.   halon extinguishers

As I said your objections are understandable, I'm not disagreeing with them as such, just your practices as a result.

If on an audit I was told by an occupier that they'd replaced compliant extinguishers just because of the label I would be telling them to go to Trading Standards and change contractor.

Do you condemn Total and London Securities group Foams because of the big green label - this is also potentially dangerously misleading?

[nim]

condemning extinguishers for this reason alone is very debatable practice - the equipment to which you refer is fully compliant with BSEN3 and everything - including the labels - passed the BSI kite-marking test as the UK Fire and Ex-celsius range using these are kitemarked with Ex-celsius being further described in literature as safe directly on electrical equipment up to 1000V from a distance of 1m.

Looking at the example I have supplied http://www.ukfire.co.uk/shares/extinguishers/doc13.pdf it doesn't say up to 1000v at 1m and I did say this in my original post. I have only come across two in all the time that I have been maintaining extinguishers and that is  over 20 years so the damage I have done isn't a great deal (neither said 1000v up to 1m). This was all done without the knowledge that I have gained in this thread and the information  I have gleaned from others that I asked the same question of over the last two weeks. I will not condemn extinguishers that say 1000v up to 1m. All others I think I will still condemn unless some other information comes to light but I am not totally comfortable with this.

Do you condemn Total and London Securities group Foams because of the big green label - this is also potentially dangerously misleading?

From the information I have been given and when BS5306 Part 3:2009 comes into force we will be condemning all NuSwift Environmental Foam with green labels.

[Thomas Brookes]

It does not matter if you are right or wrong, to condem a manufactures extinguisher for that reason could end in a costly case in court.

If you see it from the manufactures point of veiw, they spend maybe hundreds of thousands of pounds developing an all singing all dancing extinguisher that passes all these stringent tests etc.
Then they start getting complaints from end users saying some one has condemned there extinguishers because they are not fit for purpose. They will have no option but to bring a liable case against the company or person because the integrity of there whole company could rest on winning that case.
I will just service as normal and give some guidance to the customer on how it should be used.

[nim]

It does not matter if you are right or wrong, to condem a manufactures extinguisher for that reason could end in a costly case in court.

Which one was this aimed at?

I will not condemn extinguishers that say 1000v up to 1m. All others I think I will still condemn unless some other information comes to light but I am not totally comfortable with this.

From the information I have been given and when BS5306 Part 3:2009 comes into force we will be condemning all NuSwift Environmental Foam with green labels.

[AnthonyB]

Both I would say!

I'm not going to start an argument over this, but I do know that BSI wouldn't be happy with anyone implying they kitemark non conforming (by reason it appears of their own standards) equipment which is what you suggest as all the stuff you are binning is currently manufactured and installed and holds a current BSI kite-marking approval.

Yes, I agree the large chunks of green on Total & London Securities Eco-Foams can be misleading

Yes, I agree that the use of electrically safe symbols by UK Fire & Excelsius could potentially be a risk

But that's no reason to mislead customers and extract another £30-£300 (depending on what end of the market you are at) out of them for it. Advise them accordingly and let them make their own decision, but to say 'condemned' is sharp practice at best.

[nim]

Yes, I agree the large chunks of green on Total & London Securities Eco-Foams can be misleading

With this one how would you interpret this?

BS5306-3:2009

9.22 Conditions indicating that an extinguisher is unsafe for use

………….snip

Additional reasons for condemning an extinguisher include the following (unless rectified by the replacement of the appropriate components):

………….snip

5) extinguishing medium colour coding not conforming to BS 7863

Note. This does not refer to the colour of the lettering on the instruction label.

WARNING. There is a safety concern where an extinguisher has prominent colours that do not reflect the accepted colours for indicating the contents of the extinguisher (see BS 7863). Confusion and possibly danger to the operator might be caused by the use of inappropriate medium on the fire.

Unless we have acces to a replacement label made by the manufacturer what are we supposed to do?


Not quite fair to say "all the stuff you are binning" because as I said earlier it's two extinguishers in twenty years. Neither said  "Safe to use up to 1000v at 1m" and one was an unkitemarked "Firefox" which in my opinion were always rubbish anyway.

Yes, I agree that the use of electrically safe symbols by UK Fire & Excelsius could potentially be a risk

You may be right about what you have written but if it doesn't include the additional information "Safe to use up to 1000v at 1m" is it still acceptable?

I have asked a lot of engineers about this in the last couple of weeks and not one of them would deliberatly install a water based extinguisher which has passed the 35kv dielectric test to only cover electrical equipment.

Virtually every other manufacturer excludes the electrical arrow and if they include any information with regard to suitability for electrical equipment they always say "Suitable for inadvertant use on electrical equipment"

Complete inconsistencies with manufacturers also because even Total on their water extinguisher which has passed the 35kv dielectric test don't have the electrical flash and on some other of their other products they do?

[AnthonyB]

Once the 2009 version is out (checked with BSI today that the 2003 version is still current) then if it matches the draft then it's fair game as it's quiet explicit. Until then, it doesn't count (although it would be wise to give a heads up to customers)

Quiet a few lightening flash Excelsuis Water additives & foams should crop up as Tyco have used this kit in addition to Firemark in the last year or two.

If it stays as written a lot of MK Fire extinguishers will be out of action as they are probably the most prevalent user of London Securities/BWH green & cream foams having a big customer base before takeover - Asco, LW Safety, Hoyles & TVF stuff will also be similarly affected.

It will be interesting to see if there is a change in what gets supplied from Total & BWH as this change will mean stuff less than 12 months old could theoretically be binned - be a good test for the 10 year waranty offered by London Securities!.

Of course in some places they will stay in service as a fair number of engineers aren't even using the defunct 200 version of Part 3 let alone this pending one.

Firefox stuff was not the best, not unsurprising it didn't stay on sale here long unlike ANAF & Exxmon. although all three brands are doing very well in their counties of origin!

[nim]

if it matches the draft then it's fair game as it's quiet explicit. Until then, it doesn't count (although it would be wise to give a heads up to customers)

This isn't the draft although it hasn't been published yet. This is the finished article.

It will be interesting to see if there is a change in what gets supplied from Total & BWH as this change will mean stuff less than 12 months old could theoretically be binned - be a good test for the 10 year waranty offered by London Securities!.

I think what will happen is that some manufacturers et al will just supply their engineers with new labels because they have shifted shedloads. As I understand it some manufacturers couldn't be bothered to comment when the drafts were being circulated and by the time the final draft for typos was published their attempt to change the the final draft was too late. We supply some Total stuff but none of the environmental foam and I think they will change the product label to comply.

[Thomas Brookes]

Hi Nim,
I am not saying you are wrong, in fact if I was kitting out a building I would not dream of just having a foam or water that has a electrically safe symbol on it.

What I am saying is be careful how you condem it, because if the manufactures got the hump they may be able to bring case against the person. They would just have to prove it meets all the standards and does what they claim it does.

[The Reiver]

When there was no response to the draft publication, the manufacturers in question were invited on numerous occasions to put their case to the BSI Technical Committee. It was this attempt to give them a chance that has actually delayed the publication of the standard.

They did not respond to any invitation.

Also remember that "green" as an extinguisher colour coding is still in use elsewhere.

The colour coding issue can easily be resolved if the manufacturers issue some form of retrospective labelling to the industry. If not, then these extinguishers will be non-compliant and open season will begin. And if they can't even be bothered to do that, then maybe they deserve what's coming.