Guidelines (again)

[Midland Retty]

Hiya Billy

In answers to your questions:

1/ Yes
2/ Yes
3/ Hopefully, depends on how competent the people doing the assessments are.

On the issue of no tie off points - I have seen very few places where this would be an issue. There are of course buildings out there where places to tie off are few and far between, leading to the possibility of slack guidelines etc, but no tie of points at all?

The problem comes when negotiating corners potentially, but again it comes down to training training training.

My BA probationary training was incredibly intense, and our instructors were very very strict about guideline techniques (as you would expect). The problem came that once on station we just didnt practice guidelines at all.

I sympathise with your comments and appreciate you are trying to be proactive and make life better and easier for the ops crews, but unfortunately we come across situations do not fit the guide book. Now weigh that against the times we actually use guidelines and you have to balance how big the problem really is.

When they come up against a scenario which doesn't fit SOPs or guidebooks crews and commanders need to employ a little firefightership to get round the issue. (I believe firefightership is still allowed in a few brigades - well atleast until management completely stamp it out of course)

No realworld replacements are as yet available for guidelines, and until they are the status quo is retained.

In the meantime training, and other equipment at our disposal, can assist us in getting by safely until something else comes along. If that doesn't happen then Im afraid serious questions have to be asked of the crews and commanders involved.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Billy,

You seem very hung up on the need for tie off points. What were you taught during training?

If you're telling me that there is never anything to tie off to, then I'm staggered. There are techniques for using a door jamb as a means of securing the line, and, if a room has been searched, the door handle may be used as an indicator and tie off.

At a corner, the line shouldn't be tight anyway and it's permissable to allow the line to go round it without being tied off.

In answer to your questions and to keep you happy,

1) Yes - I'm sure I mentioned before that they are a control measure to reduce risk and would be recorded as 'consider the use', subject to a dynamic risk assessment.

2) No, I would refer to my services SOP for Breathing Apparatus.

I take it you are a qualified risk assessor and fully understand what 'suitable and sufficient' means when carrying out ORA's?

I also agree with Midland's comment about using common sense and fire-fightership .... and proper dynamic risk assessment.

[Billy]

Baldyman/Midland McMidland

Thanks for your comments and I really do value your honest views and opinions on this subject.

Our training centre has had to fit tie off points so we can use and safely tie off guidelines properly.
I was directly involved in  2 off-site training buildings which were unoccupied and were generously given to our area to be used predominately for BA training. One was an old hospital building of single storey construction, 10m by 40m and consisting of about 8 rooms. The other was a single storey unoccupied industrial unit of about 40m by 20m. it had a large open area within which was an office area consisting of about 6 rooms. Both buildings were ideal for training with guidelines but before we could, we had to fit door handles to allow us to use them properly. I have a NEBOSH and so has the Area trainer who is also a BAI and we both agreed that we could not safely deploy guidelines in any of these buildings without fitting tie off points. These buildings are the type of building that we could get called to and have to make the decision, in certain circumstances, if we would use guidelines or not.
Now imagine a situation where you not only have to make a decision to use guidelines, but you also do not know if you can secure them properly in the building.
So with that in mind, I think I could easily justify NOT using guidelines within a building.
But if I ever get called to court and have to justify why I didn't use them, it would be ok until the man in the curly wig pulls out the ORA and asks me why I have rightly included a disorientation risk but failed to check if i can safely use one of our recognised control measures.

Again, I thank all concerned for their comments, and even though we can agree to disagree on certain things, one thing seems certain and that is that we all want what is best and safest for Fire crews.

This is my own personal opinion and should not be taken as the views of my Service

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

So you're talking about buildings used for training then?

I still don't agree with having to provide tie off points. Training should be undertaken in realistic scenarios which is closely supervised. Providing tie off points isn't going to teach recruits anything, they could come to expect them in areal incident.

Just a question, How do you search a large open space? How are you fire fighters taught?

[nearlythere]

So you're talking about buildings used for training then?

I still don't agree with having to provide tie off points. Training should be undertaken in realistic scenarios which is closely supervised. Providing tie off points isn't going to teach recruits anything, they could come to expect them in areal incident.

Just a question, How do you search a large open space? How are you fire fighters taught?

I think the Training Centre environment, which provides an abundance of tie off points, is fine as it enables teams to practice proper procedures and familiarises with tying off, so long as it is acknowledged that it is only refresher or familiarisation training to compliment that undertaken at station level.
However, we do know that this is not necessarily the case and in many stations periodic BA refresher training in a Training Centre is usually the only time that guideline work takes place.

[Billy]

The point I was trying to make is that we all concede that we need to secure tie off points into our training buildings so we can use and train safely and effectively with guidelines and these buildings are well  controlled and monitored. This will never be the case at a real incident and the only reason we will consider using guidelines is to save, saveable lives or property. With the increase in Firefighter deaths, especially in larger buildings where guidelines could conceivably be used, should we not be looking at everything and anything to reduce the risk to fire crews, including pre-planning to decide if we can or cannot use guidelines and properly secure them within the premises.