Author Topic: Assistance Required  (Read 5702 times)

Offline natdan

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Assistance Required
« on: May 17, 2010, 06:04:59 PM »
Can someone please advise.

I have had an FRA company carry out some risk assessments for a client of mine and we have now been challenged.  I have asked the FRA company for a reply but thought I would also seek independant advice on here.

A FRA has been carried out at a 3 storey property.  The residents are lease holders and are mixed betwen general needs and elderly all with general living requirements, no disabled or house bound.

The property had a vent on the upper floor only above the ceiling.  The FRA company advised that this area breached the fire compartment and should be covered.  The works have been carried out and this has been covered up.  I think that the FRA company were unaware that there was a vent within this area as the vent only exists on the upper floor and not on the lower 2 floors which are identical.  They company advise that the residents are now saying that this area is not being ventilated properly and they are concerned that this will harm their health.

The second challenge is that the FRA calls for 3 steel or brass hinges that are CE certified as the hinges currently on the doors are 16-20 years old and not CE certified.  Would the advice be to install 3 CE certified hinges or would old hinges be acceptable?

I look forward to any advice that you can give.

I also may be looking for someone to assist me in a more formal level as I am thinking of getting third party advice on this






Offline colin todd

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Re: Assistance Required
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 07:37:13 PM »
I am slightly confused.  You say that the assessors wanted the vent sealed, but then you say they were not aware of the vent.  Where did the vent go, and what compartmentation was breached?  The 3 certified hinges is somewhat purist.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Assistance Required
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 07:39:47 PM »
Can someone please advise.

I have had an FRA company carry out some risk assessments for a client of mine and we have now been challenged.  I have asked the FRA company for a reply but thought I would also seek independant advice on here.

A FRA has been carried out at a 3 storey property.  The residents are lease holders and are mixed betwen general needs and elderly all with general living requirements, no disabled or house bound.

Is it residential accommodation?

The property had a vent on the upper floor only above the ceiling.

The ceiling of what and where?


 The FRA company advised that this area breached the fire compartment and should be covered.  The works have been carried out and this has been covered up.  I think that the FRA company were unaware that there was a vent within this area as the vent only exists on the upper floor and not on the lower 2 floors which are identical.  They company advise that the residents are now saying that this area is not being ventilated properly and they are concerned that this will harm their health.

What is the area that the residents say is not being ventilated properly?

The second challenge is that the FRA calls for 3 steel or brass hinges that are CE certified as the hinges currently on the doors are 16-20 years old and not CE certified.  Would the advice be to install 3 CE certified hinges or would old hinges be acceptable?

What doors are we talking about?
What makes the FRA think that the hinges are not to standard?
Are there only two hinges at present?

I look forward to any advice that you can give.

I also may be looking for someone to assist me in a more formal level as I am thinking of getting third party advice on this






« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 07:42:35 PM by nearlythere »
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Assistance Required
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 09:10:51 PM »
Clearly it is difficult to comment without more information but I generally find that rather than starting world war 3 it is better to approach the company who carried out the risk assessment for an explanation of their findings.

They should be able to tell you what the standard of compartmentation is- it can vary between purpose built and conversions. It might be that one occupier invited them into their flat and the others did not- they would then perhaps have only been able to comment on what they had seen. Its one area in which in England and Wales whilst the Fire Safety order only applies to the landlords and  common areas  clearly fire compartmentation between floors could be breached in a localised area only visible from the interior of a flat- ie part of the building not subject to the Order. This is a difficult situation and only really possible to enforce if it constitutes dangerous conditions. Sometimes in blocks of flats this can create major difficulties for the assessor- take for example a service duct for the soil stacks that links flats- it is clearly a common area, though sometimes only accessible from within the flats.

If the assessors are worried about macro detail such as hinges it points towards a level of diligence and possibly competence but of course this needs tempered by a sense of proportion as well.   They may say that the hinges were aluminium or had nylon bushes- or on the other hand they could be OTT. Let them justfy their report, give them the chance to provide you with answers then if you are still unsure there are plenty more fish in the sea.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 09:40:36 PM by kurnal »

Offline natdan

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Re: Assistance Required
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2010, 11:11:54 PM »
Just to keep on with this subject:

The assessors have replied to me by saying that the hinges to the door were worn and were in poor condition and should be replaced whilst capital works at the property are being carried out. 

With regards the vent and compartmentation, there was a ceiling that was installed which you could see through and there was a large area above this that was not seperated.  The FRA company advised that they were unaware that there was a vent above this (visible only from the external area) and advised to upgrade the ceiling so the fire compartment is sealed and the fire rating maintained.

In reply to previous replies:

It is a purpose built block of flats (residential) over 3 storey's.  The ground floor has one entrance at the front and one to the side off a protected stair case area.  The hinges they refer to are from the door that leads from the protected stair to the foyer area outside the flats (2 each level) They advised that these hinges are worn and to ensure that fire compartmentation is not breached these should be replaced during capital works that are programmed at this site.  I have also been advised there are only 2 hinges at present.

The area that the residents say is not being properly ventilated is the area outside the flats leading to the protected stair case.  This area is about 4 meters square.  The area outside the flats on the upper level is the same as the lower level and the first floor.  These areas are not ventilated so I am unsure why there are risks to health other thna the heating is on and it does get stuffy!

When I refer to the assessors wanting the vent covered I actually mean they wanted the ceiling covered but have since been advised that a vent has been covered.

The FRA company have said they would be happy to pay for the works to be put back to original condition and have a third party make the decision so they are working with us.

Thank you for your info so far it is much appreciated.



Offline nearlythere

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Re: Assistance Required
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 06:42:49 AM »

The area that the residents say is not being properly ventilated is the area outside the flats leading to the protected stair case.  This area is about 4 meters square.  The area outside the flats on the upper level is the same as the lower level and the first floor.  These areas are not ventilated so I am unsure why there are risks to health other thna the heating is on and it does get stuffy!

Is this "area" outside the flat enclosed forming a lobby? Is this area seperated from the stairway or is it a stairway landing?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Assistance Required
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 07:54:54 AM »
Hi Natdan
Glad to hear things are amicable.
This sounds like a building of 3 floors in which the single staircase opens into a protected lobby at all levels. The staircase should have opening windows of 1 sq m.  The design rules can be summarised thus- assuming the flats all have an internal lobby - i.e. the entrance door to each flat opens into a hallway rather than into a room, and that the distance from any flat entrance door to the door to the stairs does not exceed 4.5m  then the common protected lobby may not need ventilation from a fire safety point of view.

There are some helpful diagrams in the Approved Document B that explain this:
Heres the approved document B showing the design approach that was probably adopted in your building- see see diagram 14:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADB_2000.pdf

However just in case you are making any alterations you would need to conform now to the latest approach- heres the latest version-  see diagram 9.
http://www.sconul.ac.uk/groups/space_planning/papers/bdgs_reg_2000.pdf

You will spot that the rules on ventilation of the staircase  became more onerous in the 2006 edition and note 3 in diagram 9 changed.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 07:57:02 AM by kurnal »