Author Topic: Delays on Manual Call Points  (Read 28908 times)

Offline Fishy

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2007, 04:15:49 PM »
LU's alarms operate as follows:

- a two-minute timer to acknowledge the coded alert (at the panel);
- five further minutes to investigate and (if nothing found) reset;
- immediate evacuation if two or more devices activate (call points; call point and detector; two detectors etc);

The two call-point activations and 'evac' means that, if staff investigate and find a fire, all they have to do is find a second call point, activate it, and they'll chuck the system into full 'evac' immediately.

Offline shaunmckeever

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2007, 05:50:44 PM »
Quote from: nearlythere
Shaun
Surely prior to removal of the MCPs a RA would have been carried out?
Yes I did say a risk assessment had been carried out

Quote from: nearlythere
Shaun
Secondly, would you not consider that a risk assessment is undertaken to maintain an acceptable level of safety taking into consideration all of the circumstances?
Yes I would/did

Quote from: nearlythere
Shaun
You would not ask for EODs on cell doors of prisons without firstly taking into consideration the function of the premises and the nature of the occupants. A prison must function as a place of enforced incarceration.
I agree

Quote from: nearlythere
Shaun
A normal fire alarm system incorporating MCP's in a place where there is a biosterous occupancy will be subject to abuse.
And it was hence the decision to remove, but in my view without exploring all the avenues.

Thebeardedyorkshireman has already given one avenue that was not explored which is ironic since his name appears to have some relevance to the brigade concerned.

Offline kurnal

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2007, 10:47:05 PM »
Bearded Dave.
Now you are talking!
You may be in danger of taking over from Dr Wiz as my superhero.

That is a solution I would be happy to go along with.

Offline Wiz

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2007, 10:57:35 AM »
Quote from: kurnal
Bearded Dave.
Now you are talking!
You may be in danger of taking over from Dr Wiz as my superhero.

That is a solution I would be happy to go along with.
It happens to us all at sometime.

One minute a superhero, the next, cruelly discarded.

Offline SidM

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2008, 10:58:17 AM »
I have read many posts on this issue with great interest and I am still not convinced about time delay.  Five minutes to investigate is a long time.  How long before a fire flashes over?  

Second, how is it that CCTV would not work?  If staff are present all the time can they not monitor?  Furthermore, would notices stating that those caught maliciously actuating call points will be prosecuted under the Health & Safety at Work Act not work?

What if a guest discovers a fire?  He looks for a call point, breaks the glass and nothing happens.  he panics and then what?

It might be a simplistic view but if there are too many false alarms the management of the hotel in question needs to be looked at under Article 11.
"We are the unwilling,
Led by the unqualified,
Doing the unnecessary,
For the ungrateful.
-Living the dream!"

Offline wee brian

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2008, 11:17:15 AM »
Sid - I'm guessing you are an enforcing officer. In general prosecuting your customers is bad for business.

I agree about the silent MCPs though - I would prefer that they made a noise or something so that you knew that something was happening.

People rarely panic, but they do do daft things.

Offline SidM

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2008, 11:21:39 AM »
Quote from: wee brian
Sid - I'm guessing you are an enforcing officer. In general prosecuting your customers is bad for business.

I agree about the silent MCPs though - I would prefer that they made a noise or something so that you knew that something was happening.

People rarely panic, but they do do daft things.
Wee Brain -  Seriously how did you guess?
"We are the unwilling,
Led by the unqualified,
Doing the unnecessary,
For the ungrateful.
-Living the dream!"

Offline brownguyrav2007

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2008, 05:35:26 PM »
Hi, I can see your problem as a high school near me has a fire activation about 4 times a week. They have a GENT vigilon networked system and a number of callpoints rising over the hundreds.  

Because the school was linked with an ARC (alarm receiving centre) they have to conduct a full evacuation because they dont have time to get to a telephone, choose their right option from a switch board, get put through to somone and cancel the alarm signal because the chances are the fire brigade have already been called and on their way to the site.

Their solution was to set up a delay time of 3 minutes so if any device was activated a pager system would be activated in the same idea as an autodialler on a burglar alarm so key members of staff can make their way to a control panel and locate the device which was activated, but at the same time during the delay period a continuous sound would be emitted by a sensor sounder or or a wall sounder strobes strobe would flash while not making a noise.

If they locate the device and it was false they would walkie talkie a member of staff near the control panel to silence the alarm. If the timer runs out the sound pattern will change from a continuous tone to a warble tone but will further delay the alarm receiving centre by 4 minutes if they took a bit longer to reset the device or notify the silence. If there was a fire the person at the control panel would just press the U2 button which is a user programmable button to notify the ARC and to make the sounder tone change.

So as a summary of events the below would happen in a sequence:

Callpoint or sensor activated

Pager activated (staff on their way to panel to find investigate, continuous sound pattern and strobes only active started)

False- device is reset and someone at contol panel resets alarm condition. REAL- someone at control panel presses the U2 button to change sound pattern and notify ARC (warble tone) !!!FULL EVACUATION!!!

If more than 2 smoke detectors activate the alarm just goes into delay perion but if 1 smoke and 1 heat activate then a full alarm is initiated. If more than 2 callpoints and a detector are activated then a full alarm is initiated but if 2 callpoints activate then only a delay is active for staff to investigate.

If the school needed to do a system test or practice evacuation you would simply phone the ARC saying that you are going to test the fire alarms so they ignore the condition. You would have to ring them after saying that you have finished testing so the system is active again.

It sounds complicated but this fucntion wouldnt be available if it wasnt safe. Just you would have to make your own fire acion notices noting your evacuation procedures.

Sounds complicated but it actually isn't that hard to understand and it saves fines to the building for the fire brigade call-out

What is the model of your fire alarm system??? I will be able to tell you if it is possible to do this.
If you need any more help just ask.

:)

Offline kurnal

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2008, 09:29:26 PM »
Did you set up that configuration yourself? If so you are a useful chap to know.

Not many engineers would be able to set up that complex a cause and effect tree and less still be able to set up a test schedule to verify its operation!

On the first stage alarm, when a call point is operated you say a single tone is generated and a pager call radiated-  is that a single sounder in the vicinity of the origin of the call or just an alert at the control panel? Does the person operating the call point get an indication to show that something is happening?

The system seems to rely on a radio link as well as the pagers if the change from single alert tone to evacuate has to be done at the panel. That seems to me a big weakness if this is the case.

messy

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2008, 10:57:49 PM »
I am intrigued why when 2 SDs actuate, the system still only goes to delayed mode.

Is that right and if so, what was the rationale behind that?

Most, in fact I think all, delayed systems I have encountered would go to full evacuation if 2 SDs were tripped.

Offline Wiz

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2008, 09:32:02 AM »
Quote from: brownguyrav2007
What is the model of your fire alarm system??? I will be able to tell you if it is possible to do this.
If you need any more help just ask.

:)
O.K. Brownguyrav 2007, lets see what you are made of :). Please assume it is an Ampac FireFinder control panel running V4 software. Please confirm which function styles you would use in the config. Include, if possible, a config to also provide a class-change signal by connecting an input to the 'door switch' terminals

Offline CivvyFSO

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2008, 09:37:46 AM »
Quote from: Wiz
O.K. Brownguyrav 2007, lets see what you are made of :). Please assume it is an Ampac FireFinder control panel running V4 software. Please confirm which function styles you would use in the config. Include, if possible, a config to also provide a class-change signal by connecting an input to the 'door switch' terminals
Pah! My mum could do that!