Student Accomodation

[Mushy]

Hi people

A scenario

Three storey HIMO….19th century house converted to accommodation for hospital staff consisting of ground, first and second floors. There are 5 bedrooms on each floor.

Entrance lobby leads to three ground floor bedrooms a common room and an escape route at the rear to outside. Entrance houses stair to first floor (staircase A)

Go from this area on the same floor, through a door to a corridor that houses an external fire exit door to the front of the building  and another staircase (staircase B)to the upper floors.

Off this corridor is a kitchen (magnetic hold open doors) utility room and two other bedrooms that are in a dead end but within the TD to the external exit. (well it’s not exactly a dead end….there is a designated fire exit route from this area to the rear through a corridor but it is in disrepair with storage blocking the route…more on that in a bit)

Go back now to the entrance and up the staircase A... which is a large open staircase to the first floor. All around the head of this staircase are 5 bedrooms,  kitchen, linen room ,WC’s  and computer room. This staircase does not go to the second floor.

From this area is a door into the staircase B that goes to ground and second floor. To get to this door the occupants of the bedrooms have to pass the head of the open staircase.

Once through this door and into staircase B you go up to the second floor where there are a further 5 bedrooms, a store and a bathroom.

Emergency lighting throughout. L2 fire alarm and fire doors to all rooms. Walls/ceilings are all fire resistant. All non bedroom fire doors are on magnets

Now, from the top floor there is a Fire Exit route (separate from staircase B) that goes through someone’s bedroom and from this bedroom to an external escape. This door opens on actuation of the fire alarm

My thoughts are that this exit isn’t needed because all the TD’s are ok…however the Fire Authority think it should remain…fine, it aint of much odds…just the principal…any views on this?

What are your views on this open staircase? (staircase A) I am aware what the paper guides say…I just want the opinion of the real guides

Against : fire in downstairs entrance could cause smoke logging of first floor possibly trapping residents (would also trap the residents of the ground floor as well!)

For: All doors are fire doors. L2 fire alarm system. Excellent housekeeping. No fires to date.

The FA are making noises about it being dodgy (the young inspecting officer are looking into it!)

The disused fire exit to the rear that I mentioned earlier in my opinion is not needed and in my opinion should be taken off the M.O.E schedule. It would cost too much to resurrect. This would then create a dead end corridor with two bedrooms but within the TD. However I have been told that the FA say it should be reinstated

Difficult I know to imagine without plans but any views from the learned forum?

PS..All this stuff from the FA is hearsay as there is nothing in writing as yet

[CivvyFSO]

Against : fire in downstairs entrance could cause smoke logging of first floor possibly trapping residents (would also trap the residents of the ground floor as well!)

That is not good.

For: All doors are fire doors. L2 fire alarm system. Excellent housekeeping.

All of this would be expected in any sleeping risk.

No fires to date.

Most of the places our crews will visit today will not have had a fire before.

It is quite hard to build up a picture of the building from the written description, but I do suspect that it might be the risk of losing the main stair/entrance that would be the reason for retaining the other exit? Where you say that travel distance is ok, is this travel into a protected corridor/stair, or is it really a few inner-room bedrooms, passing through an access room?

[kurnal]

Sounds like we have a second floor with bedrooms  served by a single internal staircase and access to an external staircase

And a first floor  with bedrooms served by a single staircase that happens to have another optional  route of limited value from the head of the main staircase into another staircase.

Its always difficult to justify removing fire escape provision because by doing so you are inevitably making the building a little bit less safe than it was before, even if previously it greatly exceeded benchmark standards.

No doubt at the time the building was converted the guidance at the time would have been clear. It would have said where buildings have a  single staircase serving bedrooms above the first floor the staircase must have lobby protection. But if it has a protected route to a good standard, that kitchen door with magnets does not open into the stair and full detection then I would not lose any sleep over it. In discussing the removal of the external you could ask yourself- if it wan't there would you be asking for it?

[Mushy]

Hi civvy

thanks for your reply

thought the written description was ok meself  ...but you are right without seeing it it's probably a struggle

yep again an L2 would be expected in sleeping risk...quite right!

and again you are correct   "most of the places our crews will visit today will not have had a fire before"...27 years in the job will back your statement out...now back to the nitty gritty

If there was a fire in the entrance area and it went up staircase A to the first floor...it would not affect the second floor MOE as Staircase B which runs from second floor to ground is seperated from it by FR....

..and for that reason I can't see why a second MOE on the second floor through a bedroom and down an external is necessary. The second floor has a perfectly adequate protected internal stair...albeit it does not exit direct to outside...you go via a protected corridor

The TD from the 'dead end' accommodating the two bedrooms, is from the inside the bedrooms (no access rooms) and through a protected corridor to an external exit...

so again unsure why the disused rear exit is needed

clear as mud? 


just seen your reply Kurnal...I wouldn't be fussed about leaving the external escape through the second floor  bedroom...just curious why it was asked for in the first place tis all...and no I wouldn't ask for it if it was new

the first floor is served by two staircases to ground floor....but one is open so if a fire started in the ground floor entrance then it could spread to first floor...but the other stair from the first floor is protected by a fire door at it's head.
 
The occupants of the first floor, if they aint quick at waking up with the alarms could be in difficulty...as they would have to pass the head of this big open stair to reach the other stairway and as civvy said...not good...

Having said that...that would also be the case for the people in the rooms in the ground floor entrance...they would have to negotiate a face full of smoke or worse.....but that is the same for most flats ....am I rambling

Its the exit route that is now disused at the ground floor rear that will cost to bring it back into use and I can't work out why it was asked for

oh well thanks for replying...I need a pint

[CivvyFSO]

thought the written description was ok meself

Yes, nothing wrong with the description, it is simply my brain trying to turn all those words into a geometry.

It could have been due to some over zealous application of the good old blue guide. i.e. If you can't meet these conditions we need something else....