Fire fighters lift

[boro]

HI

If a tower building (20 stories) was built in the early 70s, should the lifts installed at that time, been installed to a standard of a fire fighting lift?. The lifts installed at present on the event of the activation of the fire alarm descend to the ground floor and remain there until either the fire alarm system is reset or the fire fighters switch provided is operated bringing the lift under the control of the FRS. However these lifts don’t have any secondary power supply and also don’t have any communication system. A visiting fire safety officer said that these lifts should be to a standard of a fire fighters lift due to the height of the building and he said he would be making further inquiries to require the lifts to be upgraded to this standard. Any comments regarding whether or not this is a requirement would be greatly appreciated.

[deaconj999]

The only comment I would make is that I would take the same stance as he has, however, it is always difficult to argue that this is now a requirement and it should be changed. The tower block owners should be advised that the lifts may not meet current standards.  The problem with this is cost of upgrade v fire fighter safety IAW the RRO 2005, regardless of the fact whether or not the standard in the early 70s was to have a firefighting lift. As they do not have a secondary power supply then they do not comply. It would be worth contacting BCO/BCA/AI for guidance also.

[kurnal]

The only comment I would make is that I would take the same stance as he has, however, it is always difficult to argue that this is now a requirement and it should be changed. The tower block owners should be advised that the lifts may not meet current standards.  The problem with this is cost of upgrade v fire fighter safety IAW the RRO 2005, regardless of the fact whether or not the standard in the early 70s was to have a firefighting lift. As they do not have a secondary power supply then they do not comply. It would be worth contacting BCO/BCA/AI for guidance also.

Sorry GFSM but I cant go along with this. Why should the BCO have any jusidiction over this? The building exists and unless building work or material alerations are planned or have been carried out then the BCO will have no involvement in it.

I wager that you could visit every tower block in the UK constructed between 1930- 1985 and you will find the same situation. If the lift was installed to the contemporary standards applicable at the time and remains in good working condition I think it would be completely unreasonable to require changes.

And in addition fire fighting shafts and rising mains will not be to current standards either so do we need to upgrade these too?

By all means once the lift needs replacement we should ensure the  replacement conforms to current standards. But in my view thats as far as we can go. The Order only requires us to maintain facilities for firefightersthat has been installed under other legislation, eg fire fighting lifts. Remember fire fighters are not relevant persons.

I suggest that Boro get hold of copies of the design guidance for the building  applicable at the time eg if this is  Flats  CP3 part 1 chapter 4 ( probably the 1971 edition of the document) and use this as the benchmark for your intial assessment of the building.
You may also wish to check any provisions in the Leicetershire Act for provisions for access for firefighters- but again this is not retrospective if indeed it covers firefighting shafts, and in any case HM Government is currently reviewing the relevance of all of these and consulting on  whether they are still required or should be scrapped.

[deaconj999]

Some very good points,

but please read me post again I already said however, it is always difficult to argue that this is now a requirement and it should be changed

Of course you wouldn't be able to insist that the lift was brought up to current standards, nor the assumed FF shaft and rising main.

What I meant by speaking to BCO et al was 'guidance' as and not jurisdiction, after all the risk assessor for the FRS is 'making further enquiries' therefore he will find that as you mention, (if there is no works planned), that ADB doesn't kick in etc etc. I bet he's still  going to the local BCO to ask a few questions anyway, where else is he going to make further enquiries.

He's probably also going to try to find the plans from when the building was built (good luck) and what about the previous FRA, he surely can't be doing the first one.

He's no doubt thinking about the poor old firefighters and how exhausting it would be to fight a fire in this building, without power to the lift.

He like me, would not settle for just annotating in the FRA that the lifts did not comply to current standards, without exploring it a bit more.

[nearlythere]

Boro.

"A visiting fire safety officer said that these lifts should be to a standard of a fire fighters lift due to the height of the building and he said he would be making further inquiries to require the lifts to be upgraded to this standard."


Did the fire officer say "should be" & "making further enquiries"?

Sounds like someone let loose on the street without any experience, knowledge or savy.
With a bit of luck his boss may slap him in the ear and tell him not to be stupid, unless his boss is also without adequate experience or knowledge.

[kurnal]

Hi GFSM
Sorry if it read as though I was having a go at you - that was not my intention. I welcome discussions not arguments  so if my forthright posting caused offence - apologies.

I read Boro's post the same way as Nearlythere did. And of course firefighting lifts of the day just had a firemans override switch, a protected seperate power feed and usually little or nothing else.

[deaconj999]

Kurnal,

No apology needed, I am getting used to the forum and maybe I'm too explanatory anyway, after all I'm not a HERO member and I try to inform the poster without too much confusion.

I do however find everyone's comments an education, after all this is what it's all about, helping each other even if some members are more competent than others and as we all know you can give the same problem to a group of fire safety specialists and they will all come up with slighlty different answers. That's the nature of the beast.

I truly believe that no-one knows it all, but knowledge shared is knowledge gained and we all started in this line of work in different decades and we all bring sometihng to the party.

We have had comms outside this I believe with the BS 9999 calculator but I recently change ny username to GFSM.

[Phoenix]

If I was doing a FRA on this building, and I do many involving similar issues, I might do a couple of things:

Firstly, I might recommend that the RP has an electrical engineer survey the electrical supply to the lift motors to assess if there is any possibility of a fire in the building compromising the electrical supply to the lift.  Further actions could go a couple of ways depending upon the result of this.  As an example, a fire in the lift motor room would have to be approached by the stairs but, perhaps, fires in other parts of the building pose no threat to the electrical supply for the lift.

Secondly, I would point out the facts as kurnal has laid them out but I would add, as I'm sure many of the readers of this would, that the RP must appreciate that, as it stands, the fire service are unlikely to use the lifts in case of fire and so any fire on any of the upper floors is likely to be given the opportunity to grow substantially before the fire service start tackling it.  From a property and business protection point of view, this is not good and the RP might just feel inclined to provide duplicate supplies and correct enclosure for the lift in order to give additional resilience to his business.

Stu



 

[boro]

Dear All

Thank for your comments they are all greatly appreciated. I have been in contact with my local BC and at present no information seems to be available regarding the original design; however I am lead to believe it was built for the local county council. I did however, regarding the lifts having no secondary power, inform my local fire station some twelve – eighteen months earlier, of which prior to this, they were of the understanding that they did have a secondary power supply. This is also documented this in the fire safety info box provided at the main entrance. I have raised the need to consider upgrading these lifts with the managers in estates, but as GFSM states it’s the cost of upgrade v fire fighter safety. Once again thank you for you advise.

boro