Author Topic: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility  (Read 23423 times)

Offline Fishy

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Re: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2011, 01:07:15 PM »
Do you expect the landlord to employ a team of staff to be on standby for the one day a year a disabled person may enter the building just in case of fire?

The disabled toilets etc are there because of Building Regulations. On new builds the refuges and communications system is there because of Building Regulations. Correctly as common the landlord will maintain these.

But beyond that any further provision is not feasible for the landlord to implement - they don't have the budget, staffing or control to do so and it's not realistic to do so (if it was it would be in B Regs) beyond helping coordinate and cooperate and maintain common features installed under Building Regs.

Most multi-occupancies are unstaffed and those that do are often single manned and cannot spend all day quizzing everyone entering a building and drafting a PEEP and anyway during an evac they already have too many other key roles to fulfil without running around with an Evac chair under their arm

Some misinterpretation here; my expectation of a landlord is not that they and they alone are responsible for this aspect of fire safety.  It would be that they consult and correspond with all their tenants regarding how the safe evacuation of disabled persons can be managed, in accordance with the relevant good practice (BS 9999; HMG Guides etc).  This would normally need to be done wherever a building is accessible to persons with mobility impairments (e.g. wheelchair users), whether such occupants are currently in evidence or not.

This should result in a co-ordinated risk assessment that would describe how disabled persons would be evacuated in acceptable safety, from any location accessible to them, to a place of safety, in case of a fire anywhere in that building.  For any individual, the PEEP can then be drawn up referring to the overall strategy.  The landlord’s responsibility would be to manage and maintain whatever aspects of the relevant evacuation procedure are under their control (i.e. for which they are the responsible person).  What, precisely, those are will depend upon the nature of the evacuation plan, the split in responsibilities and the terms of the lease.  In some cases the responsibilities will be significant (where, for example, evacuation or fire-fighting lifts are used); in others they will be minimal (sole occupier in a small, single-storey building).  In few cases will they have no accountability, because they will usually ‘control’ some of the risk reduction measures that support the evacuation sequence, be they physical assets or management procedures.

That’s exactly how it works in the several offices we’ve used and occupied in central London – we’ve consulted with the landlord regarding how we evacuate disabled people who are (or who may be) in our tenancies.  We provide the manpower to deal with most of the sequence, but the landlord also has a management role to play & they accept responsibility for managing and maintaining much of the kit that supports the evacuation.

In summary, I really don’t think that it’s legitimate to say that this issue is something that any landlord can afford to be unconcerned with.  They will usually have some role to play in ensuring that disabled evacuation can be safely managed.  Saying that they don’t have the funding to do the above isn’t really relevant; they have to find the funding to do what’s necessary; saying that they couldn’t afford it would be absolutely no use in court.

Offline tmprojects

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Re: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2011, 11:19:30 PM »
I would say the landlord only has a duty to ensure adequate physical arrangements are available, relative to the premises. by this i mean adequate refuge points, and emergency voice communication (EVC) systems as and/or if required. I would say AD(B) or BS9999 would be a benchmark for this. The location and details of these arrangements should then be clearly communicated to the occupiers.(Art 22.) It would then be up to the occupier to provide their own equipment appropriate to their needs (evac chair), formulate the PEEP's, provide sufficient resources and formulate their Evac strategy in conjuction with the other occupiers and landlord (22 again).

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 12:22:04 AM »
I would say the landlord only has a duty to ensure adequate physical arrangements are available, relative to the premises. by this i mean adequate refuge points, and emergency voice communication (EVC) systems as and/or if required. I would say AD(B) or BS9999 would be a benchmark for this. The location and details of these arrangements should then be clearly communicated to the occupiers.(Art 22.) It would then be up to the occupier to provide their own equipment appropriate to their needs (evac chair), formulate the PEEP's, provide sufficient resources and formulate their Evac strategy in conjuction with the other occupiers and landlord (22 again).

Yes - that's how I see it.
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Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2011, 12:36:00 AM »
I would say the landlord only has a duty to ensure adequate physical arrangements are available, relative to the premises. by this i mean adequate refuge points, and emergency voice communication (EVC) systems as and/or if required. I would say AD(B) or BS9999 would be a benchmark for this. The location and details of these arrangements should then be clearly communicated to the occupiers.(Art 22.) It would then be up to the occupier to provide their own equipment appropriate to their needs (evac chair), formulate the PEEP's, provide sufficient resources and formulate their Evac strategy in conjuction with the other occupiers and landlord (22 again).

I disagree. The occupiers should assess whether or not the premises are suitable prior to occuapation. Fire risk assessment is about taking measures which are resonably practicable. So what if the premises dont have suitable refuges? You gonna ask the landlord to sort it out?

Offline tmprojects

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Re: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2011, 11:21:23 PM »
i take your point that the occupier should consider the suitability of the premises prior to occupancy.

But this doesn't remove from the fact that the Landlord needs to have done his FRA. and as such would identify the occupancy use and its requirements. and as such would be required to put in place adequate arrangement (that would be considered reasonable adjustments given the premises).

because they don't employ disabled persons doesn't remove their responsibility to consider them. they control the Mof E for premises they want to rent! how many businesses do you think would rent if they knew they where unwilling to make provisions for disabled persons? Landlord suicide?

Sure, with all this in mind if it wasn't 'reasonable' then, if this was apparent to the prospective occupier, either they would have to cough up for the changes or find somewere else.

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2011, 11:22:37 PM »
But they don't sadly  :(

Nor do they do occupancy calculations before leasing a floor in an office block, changing the purpose group from office to assembly for one use as of these various chains of 'college' springing up everywhere and quadruple the numbers thus outstripping the stair capacities and their own MoE......
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Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2011, 11:35:10 PM »
because they don't employ disabled persons doesn't remove their responsibility to consider them. they control the Mof E for premises they want to rent! how many businesses do you think would rent if they knew they where unwilling to make provisions for disabled persons? Landlord suicide?

Unwilling isn't the word. Unable is the correct phrase. It is not for the landlord to try and cover every possibility. It is for the tenant to decide if it is suitable or not. Simple as that. It is whatever is reasonably practicable. Im a landlord and rent you a five storey office block you then tell me a certain percentage of your workforce is mobility impaired and demand I sort it out? I dont think so somehow - do you?

Offline tmprojects

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Re: Disabled Evacuation & Responsibility
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2011, 11:53:22 PM »
As 'i hope' i had made clear, it is all about what is reasonable.

if you rent a central london 'town house style' 5 storey 18th century single staircase building. then yes its not down to the landlord. any prospective tennant with half a brain could see that it wasn't suitable if they were to expect disabled persons on a regulare basis. Hence my original point 'reletive to the premises'

your view of unwilling/unable  seems to be a peronal view and as such do not dispute what you say. if you rent a premises that is clearly unfit for day to day access of disabled persons then you should have the right to stipulate that in any contract as it is may not be a 'reasonable adjustment' to make.

BUT if it is reasonable, then you should make the arrangemetns for DDA compliance should you not?