Fire Risk Assessments & Reccomendations for Fire Alarm Systems

[assured]

Time and time again i attend sites where a client has had a thrid party carry out a site Fire Risk Assessment in order to assist them clarify what they need in terms of a fire alarm system (aswell as fire safety in general, of course).

Obviously, from what i have seen some assessments are better than others, but even the best of the bunch rarely suggest anything in terms of BS5839. Despie all the greatest observation work in the world (regarding audibility, detection and other considerations for the fire system) its very rarely a conclusion for a type of system category is made.

Should this be the case? After paying money for a third party fire risk assessment i would fully expect the assessor to tell me what i needed based upon the observations made. Be it only a Manual System or L4, etc - Or am i totally wrong and should it be the case the client makes a system category selection based upon the FRA system related observations?

[nearlythere]

Time and time again i attend sites where a client has had a thrid party carry out a site Fire Risk Assessment in order to assist them clarify what they need in terms of a fire alarm system (aswell as fire safety in general, of course).

Obviously, from what i have seen some assessments are better than others, but even the best of the bunch rarely suggest anything in terms of BS5839. Despie all the greatest observation work in the world (regarding audibility, detection and other considerations for the fire system) its very rarely a conclusion for a type of system category is made.

Should this be the case? After paying money for a third party fire risk assessment i would fully expect the assessor to tell me what i needed based upon the observations made. Be it only a Manual System or L4, etc - Or am i totally wrong and should it be the case the client makes a system category selection based upon the FRA system related observations?

What you can find Assured is that some cowboy Assessors, who do a cheap meaningless job, may just say the there is no fire warning system installed and that there should be.  I have seen such "Assessments" and maybe you have also.
Nothing about the risk of not having one, why one should be installed and the Category necessary to remove or reduce the risk from fire.

[Golden]

NT these are also quite often the assessors who don't actually know whether a system is required in those types of premise and do a simple 'catch all' recommendation in their report. I would always question such a recommendation as its impossible to know the design criteria if you don't know what the purpose of the system is in the first place - or indeed if one is required at all.

[AnthonyB]

No point requiring action on a FA system unless it's specified - either to the overall category or to specific heads (if just an omission from one area or an L5).

Of course the assessor needs to know what they are talking about - I read a pathetic FRA by an employment law firm for a tenant that asked more questions than it answered and assumed too much.

It said the building had a 'fire alarm system to P1' . Actually the building in question is split between two systems, part is an addressable system which is L5 (cover varies throughout the site on this system depending on occupancy and layout from what you would expect from an L4 in some areas to blanket L1 type cover) and the larger part is still a manual 240V system courtesy of Messrs Gent!

[nearlythere]

or indeed if one is required at all.

Exactly.

[AnthonyB]

Very true - but you should see the gasps when you say to someone not in the job they don't need AFD absolutely everywhere in their building (or a second stair for that matter, the number of times commercial  tenant's ask if it's OK that they only have one stair and what if it catches fire....)

But it's a fair point. I've assessed verbal warning and rotary gongs as acceptable in some circumstances, albeit rare in the sector we normally deal with.

The skill is also required to determine when a fire alarm is required in a premises, which taken on it's own, wouldn't normally need one. Found a small shop unit with just a 240V part 6 smoke alarm - taken on it's own ,although contentious for using residential kit, it wouldn't be an issue....until you considered the flats above that were converted from office use and only retain 30 minutes FR between uses. The relaxation was given as long as each unit (which individually wouldn't have needed an alarm) had a Part 1 fire alarm system with full AFD linked to a system in the flats.

[nearlythere]

Yesterday I came across a relatively small three storey building which had two shop tenants on the ground floor with single occupancy office use on the upper floors. The building has three separate fire alarm systems installed, one in each occupancy.
I didn't have time to make fuller inquiries as to why but I see this as the makings of a good case study to find out why each was installed, on whose recommendations and especially the competency issues.

Just a point. Where the legislation requires that,

Where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—

(a)
the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and.......

is this type of system "appropriate & necessary" and if not has there been a breach of the legislation by the persons involved in the installations.

Discuss please.

[kurnal]

Were they interlinked?
Is there a manual call point at the final exit from the building and whose system is that connected to?
Presumably NI legislation applies.

Each rp- the employers- has a duty to provide, maintain, communicate and co-operate with other RPs.
The landlord (as a person having control) has a duty to co-ordinate communicate and co-operate with other rps, and usually has primary responsibility for the communal areas.

Landlords (usually managing agents on behalf of the landlord) often dont want to take responsibility for the provision of installations in tenants accommodation. So they may try to make each tenant responsible for their own.

This is fraught with difficulty if in order to protect the means of escape in the communal areas an L1/2/3 system is required.
 
It can be done well where the shopping centre model is used- each tenant connecting to a Landlords system.

But installations such as you describe are usually done to save an estate agent the time cost and effort of doing anything at all and is usually based on penny pinching ignorance and disregard for any legal responsibility owed by themselves.

Politicians, estate agents, lawyers. Most worthy of nothing but contempt.

[nearlythere]

The building's manual system has a call point on each landing and in an inner hallway on the ground floor to which the ground floor occupier do not have ready access to.
Each of the ground floor shop's entrances are off a  small outer entrance foyer and each of these has a call point for their own systems inside their occupancies.
We have to now link all the systems but the ground floor panels are not compatible so we have to run all cabling to a new panel installed to serve all of the building.
In view of the incarceration of the "Consultant" in England might those who installed these individual systems be in breach of the legislation as they were not necessary nor appropriate for the building?

[William 29]

Time and time again i attend sites where a client has had a thrid party carry out a site Fire Risk Assessment in order to assist them clarify what they need in terms of a fire alarm system (aswell as fire safety in general, of course).

Obviously, from what i have seen some assessments are better than others, but even the best of the bunch rarely suggest anything in terms of BS5839. Despie all the greatest observation work in the world (regarding audibility, detection and other considerations for the fire system) its very rarely a conclusion for a type of system category is made.

Should this be the case? After paying money for a third party fire risk assessment i would fully expect the assessor to tell me what i needed based upon the observations made. Be it only a Manual System or L4, etc - Or am i totally wrong and should it be the case the client makes a system category selection based upon the FRA system related observations?

I agree with your observations above.  The fire risk assessment if conducted properly should provide full details of the fire system installed and if this an acceptable level for the premises and occupancy profile.  Also BS5839 is quite clear in that before a new system is installed a fire risk assessment should be conducted to determine the category required.