Evacuation of Disabled People from trains

[Tom W]

I am trying to find out more about evacuating disabled people from trains particularly with the olympics coming up.

Can anyone point me in the right direction or have a view on this?

[jokar]

Generic peeps by train operators, most platforms have wheelchair access ramps.  Staffed trains and stations with proper training and information for staff, bit more difficult with unstaffed trains like the DLR.  Most operators won't detrain unless they have to and getting more than 1 wheelchair user on a commmuter train will be chaos. Perhaps a phone call to Mr T's best friends and their Transport section may be helpful, at least they would have a view.

[Fishy]

Will vary according to the operating models used (whether they have conductors or not, underground/overground etc, etc).  Whatever the model, detrainment of passengers with severe mobility impairment could be (very) slow.   

The general principle these days is that you reach a station at all costs, if you can - you don't try and detrain between stations unless unavoidable. 

As in previous reply, LFEPA have a transport fire safety team who might be able to help.  Failing that a Freedom of Information request to the London train operators (most of whom are public-owned these days) or to Transport for London direct ought to result in some useful info?

Ed Galea at the University of Greenwich has also given this a lot of thought over the years (see http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/exit-strategy/267240.article)  & he might be worth approaching?

[Tom W]

Thanks Jokar & Fishy

I understand about the detrain but obviously that gets difficult if the train can not pull into a station. With the Olympics coming up by law of averages there will be more disabled people using the trains and are their evac plans up to scratch?

Can they limit the amount of wheelchair users (for example) onto each train, legally?

The article is of great help and I think I will make a few calls to find any more info. It seems what I have read and been told so far that there are precautions in place but they are very much hopefull ones rather than cast iron in the hope that it never has to be used. 

[Fishy]

Can they limit the amount of wheelchair users (for example) onto each train, legally?

Space (for wheechair users) is limited in most train carriages, but on a new(ish) six-car Tube train you'd have 12 wheelchair spaces (in theory).  I can't imagine how they'd effectively limit this, unless all the wheelchair users turned up at the same station and the same time.

Another link: http://www.arena-international.com/fprs/

Lots of worthy experts there, including a contact at LFEPA...

[Tom W]

Thanks for your help guys. LFEPA aren't returning my calls but I will persevere. It seems something that is not adequate and everyone concerned would prefer not to delve any deeper

[Golden]

Piglet is it inadequate or is there a remaining risk that is worth taking to allow disabled people the freedom to travel around the country? Of course it is not practical to evacuate large numbers of wheelchair users from the underground or overground trains for that matter. I'm sure TFL/most TOCs have looked at their generic plans and decided that they are adequate and some are  probably tinkering with their procedures and platforms as I write - but we get into the cost/benefit debate and it is impractical to provide facilities for every user given every possibility - if this was the case then train travel would be so expensive that we wouldn't be able to afford a ticket and the services would shut down!

Surely the aim should be to allow the maximum numbers of people to travel in comfort and to access as much of London and the games as they possibly can without presenting insurmountable problems such as detailed evacuation plans for every eventuality? LFB have wheeled evacuation chairs that fit along the carriages and through the end doors, stretchers and motorised trolleys for the tracks. LUL have similar plus facilities on stations for wheelchair visitors and the procedures are practised regularly, all of the agencies involved are carrying out frequent exercises on the run up to the Olympics. I'm not going to say there will be no problems but I'd hate to think that minor issues will prevent access - is the DDA becoming the new 'elf and safety'?

[Tom W]

Very good points Golden. Although its the Equality Act not DDA.

I think you're right, its how far do you go whilst keeping it reasonable? 

[Fishy]

it's an interesting question...

If you talk to disabled people, or even representative bodies, they tend to be reasonably 'resigned' to the fact that in going about their business they might be at slightly more risk from fire than the rest of the population.  It's one aspect of living with their condition and the price of maintaining an active life. It often applies even when at home.  However, that's not the whole story. 

What should also be considered is the 'societal concern' aspect of fire risk.  It's most relevant where companies find themselves offering access to their services or premises to the disabled without necessarily being able to completely describe how they would deal with their evacuation in a fire emergency.  Society tends to regard firms as having a greater level of responsibility for the safety of particularly vulnerable persons (the elderly, small children, disabled people etc), so even though the individuals involved consider the extra risk acceptable, and the company might, 'society' may not, if there were an incident and the vulnerable people were killed or injured.  These companies have to ask themselves "What would the newspaper headlines say..."?  Even if it isn't a legislative risk, it might be a reputational one...