Emergency egress windows in loft conversions

[Guest]

Does anybody have any information about emergency egress windows provided to loft conversions in accordance with the recommendations of ADB 2.23 - 2.25 actually being used successfully for rescue in a fire situation? I seem to recall a comment that there is no record of a window provided for this purpose actually being used.
I have been having various discussions about window positions, availability of the window due to locks or window restrictors being fitted and the sometimes potentially conflicting requirements of general safety with regards to the protection from falling (ADK) and ADB. If the windows are rarely (or never) used for escape purposes perhaps the general safety implications should take precedence over fire safety implications if there is a conflict.
Any information or views would be helpful.
Thanks
Dave F.

[Guest]

Avon fire brigade can go back five years, we have NO record of their use!

[Graham Blight]

Hi Dave,
you know our point of view, people should walk out of a building and not have to rely on external rescue.
We should not accept sitting on a roof awaiting rescue in this day and age !!

[Brian Catton]

This subject has always fascinated me, ever since in the sixties I was part of a crew that had to rescue two waiters off a hotel roof. They had used a dormer window to escape. (also attempted to use a davy escape line that fell to pieces in their hands.
It is all very well to say people should be able to walk out of a building but in domestic premises they quite often can't as the staircase route is smokelogged.
The answer is to require a good BS5839 detection and alarm system in addition to fire separation of the staircase.
My concern is what happens when the loft conversion has been occupied for many years, perhaps following several changes of owner. The next owner comes in and changes the window for the latest double glazing. They then wonder why they have to put up with the little chains on the back of the fire doors and remove them. Where are building control then??

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies so far.
Now that replacement windows require Building Regulations consent hopefully if a dwelling is provided with escape windows the replacement windows will also comply (if the occupier submits the required application!).
The issue of occupiers tampering with the fire precaution measures provided to a building are no different in a dwelling to that of any other type of building, fire doors being wedged open / closers removed, exit routes locked, detectors heads tampered with etc. so to push responsibility on 'building control' is unfair. It would be like blaming the 'fire officer' for any of the actions of an occupier in a commercial building. We all try and achieve safe premises - it's the occupiers who sometimes make them unsafe by their actions.
I agree with Graham that buildings should be designed so escape should not be reliant on others / ladder rescue. A better compromise, as that is really what the fire precautions in loft conversions are, would in my opinion be to provide self closing smoke stopping doors onto the escape route and increase the level of coverage of detection to include rooms opening onto the escape route in addition to the circulation space. Hopefully the increased early warning would allow evacuation of the new storey (especially if it's the childrens bedroom / playroom - is it wise to 'trap them in a half hour box' in the hope of ladder rescue by others) and would also improve the fire precautions in the existing dwelling that probably would not meet the current ADB standards of escape windows to each habitable room in the first floor.
Any further comments please.
Regards,
Dave F.

[Guest]

A current trend in house building is the three storey town house, (less footprint, greater density, more bucks). These are built with the required protected staircase and on paper should be safe. However I consider that the regulations fail to address the distinct possibility/probability that the all important FR doors WILL be left open, either deliberately or by accident and could be changed by subsequent owners. (changing rooms syndrome).
Residential sprinklers should be mandatory in such new houses. I am not a star gazing supporter of resi' sprinklers but if water companies can be made to offer some guarantee of adequate pressure they do seem to provide the most workable and reliable answer. Design out the need for humans wherever possible. Going back to the need for escape windows, retrofitting of domestic sprinklers is not an insumountable task. It would be interesting to compare costs, several FR doors at say £70-80 each plus escape window against cost of a typical retro-fit system. You could be very tight and even argue that it would not be needed in the conversion.

[Guest]

The ODPM has offered some advice regarding loft conversions and domestic sprinklers. In summery they have basically indicated that an enclosure at ground floor may not be necessary providing sprinklers are provided to the open plan space, other doors onto the stairs are made self closing and the 30 minute enclosure and escape window are provided to the loft. The rationale seems to be the existing dwelling will be improved and the fire precautions provided to the loft conversion will be equivalent to the guidance of ADB - you will not be able to use the stairs if the fire starts in the open plan ground floor, but the period of time available for ladder rescue from the loft room will be increased (the safe loft area will last longer than the nominal 30 minutes due to the fire being controlled) so slightly worse in one way and slightly better in another, therefore an equivalent level of safety is achieved.
The weakness in this approach (and further expanding its principles of no self closing doors and full sprinkler protection) is that we are still reliant on assisted rescue by ladder.
Although I agree that we should try and design out fire precautions that are likely to be abused, we're on a hiding to nothing if we assume any self closing door could be wedged open / closer removed - it would be impossible to design any safe building. Various decisions / advice by the ODPM state that we must assume that self closing fire doors will be shut.
Regards
Dave

[MShaw]

Although I share the reservations of many about the use of windows as an escape route, I think it is naive and unworkable to rely on FR doors and construction to protect occupants on upper floors.

I recently converted my loft and the LA building control team were very stringent about AFD/an escape window/SC fire doors/FR material around steels etc.

Where they were sadly lacking was the smoke stopping between floors. My loft, in common with 1000's of other homes has lots of pipework entering the loft space from below. There was no inspection, supervision or recommendations about smoke stopping around these services.

The result could have been (if I hadn't acted on my own iniative and installed suitable FR material) a fire downstairs would be held back by a three ton fire door to the loft room, but smoke would spread quite freely via holes where plumbing enters the loft into under-eaves cupboards.

I know, in theory, it would be detected by the AFD system allowing escape, but with self closers on all doors, the smoke from a fire in a room may have trouble reaching the heads in the hall, whilst little difficulty finding the gaps to the loft.

In those circumstances, maybe a window isn't such a bad 'fallback' arrangement.

[Guest]

The greatest diversity in evacuation strategies lies in the provision of means of escape. Although there are some requirements for two independent escape routes, several countries allow rescue as a second route, and all allow a single escape route in various circumstances. The only absolute requirements for two independent escape routes are for tall buildings. Flexibility of allowing alternative routes are usually related to the heights of buildings, but some is also related to the protection of stairways or to travel distances. Rescue is allowed as an alternative route from dwellings in low-rise flats. The provision of alternative exits via windows, balconies or doors to escape routes from the entrance could provide a safe escape from such a fire. In many cases, unconventional emergency evacuation measures and products can be used for last resorts where conventional exits are no longer available or serviceable.