Void Commercial Premises Query

[Olig7]

As a new Fire Safety Officer I have a question that the community may be able to assist with through similar experiences/situations. Apologies in advance if there is a similar thread on here but I am yet to come across it.

We have a void public house that has been subject to three separate arson incidents over the past two months. It has been void for several months, has had all the windows and doors smashed in making it completely open and hazardous. It has not been secured to any extent even though various officers have spoken to the RP, who is a property developer, to ask for this to be done. The RP keeps coming up with excuses as to why planned demolition works have not taken place.

My question is firstly, does the FSO cover this type of premises, could people who are in the location or in the property be classed as relevant persons (are they legally entitled to be there) we are particularly concerned for childrens safety and finally what action could be taken to make this situation safer?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[nearlythere]

As a new Fire Safety Officer I have a question that the community may be able to assist with through similar experiences/situations. Apologies in advance if there is a similar thread on here but I am yet to come across it.

We have a void public house that has been subject to three separate arson incidents over the past two months. It has been void for several months, has had all the windows and doors smashed in making it completely open and hazardous. It has not been secured to any extent even though various officers have spoken to the RP, who is a property developer, to ask for this to be done. The RP keeps coming up with excuses as to why planned demolition works have not taken place.

My question is firstly, does the FSO cover this type of premises, could people who are in the location or in the property be classed as relevant persons (are they legally entitled to be there) we are particularly concerned for childrens safety and finally what action could be taken to make this situation safer?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I believe it does. A premises or place does not have to be occupied to be subject to a fire risk assessment. However, the fact that there is no risk to persons in the premises is a significent factor when assessing the risk but consideration should be given to the risk to others.
I would think that the Envirnonmental Health Dept of your council might have certain powers regarding this and may be able to serve a notice to secure the premises. This might be the easiest option.

[wee brian]

If the lack of security is the problem then the Local Authority have powers to board it up at the cost of the owner - its in the Local Government Miscelaneous Provisions Act

[Mike Buckley]

RRO definitions:
“relevant persons” means—
(a) any person (including the responsible person) who is or may be lawfully on the premises;
and
(b) any person in the immediate vicinity of the premises who is at risk from a fire on the
premises,

The immediate answer is that people in the vicinity are relevant persons, however the people who have broken in are not. However again looking at the order any policeman who goes into the premises to remove the kids would be a relevant person.

Another aspect to consider is the Health and Safety at Work Act which does cover people who are not lawfully on the premises and a number of prosecutions have been made where people trespassing have come to harm.

[Dinnertime Dave]

If the lack of security is the problem then the Local Authority have powers to board it up at the cost of the owner - its in the Local Government Miscelaneous Provisions Act

agree with wee brian, all the information you need is here - 

http://www.wmarsontaskforce.gov.uk/void-derelict-premises.jsp

[PPCR]

Thinking back to my days in Fire Control, if there is a danger to the public, the Local Authority not only has the power to board the premises up but they also have a duty to do it!

[Midland Retty]

They can, but with limited budgets alas they can't do them all!

[Dinnertime Dave]

Olig,

To expand on my last post.

In my service we use our targeted response crews (small fire teams) to firstly find these void premises, and then take photographs of the hazards if not secured. They produce risk cards for operational response and make contact with the owner or his representative to persuade him to secure the site.

If this soft approach doesn`t work they will then use the evidence gathered and pass it on to the local authority stressing the dangers to the public and especially to children. If there is also evidence of drug use then get the police to also put pressure on the owners and local authority. The local authority are able to board up immediately but will usually wait 28 days to prevent the owner appealing and them then having to pay costs.  

This approach has been working for us for couple of years. However, when I originally approached the local authority they denied all knowledge on their responsibilities!

I think the phrase my manager would use is “a good example of partnership working”

[Olig7]

Many thanks for all the responses, it certainly helps to get a wide range of views. I think it is interesting that although we seem to agree the FSO covers these void premises there is little we can do to enforce the required changes, certainly in any hurry. I realise the local authority can take measures to secure the premises but as this doesnt appear to be happening would anyone agree if an enforcement notice would be appropriate under 8 (1b)?

[wee brian]

Just tell the bleeding Local Authority - it isnt your job to do theirs!

[nearlythere]

Just tell the bleeding Local Authority - it isnt your job to do theirs!

I'm with you WB. Send them a letter (not a phone call) outlining the issue and that the premises require securing. They hate letters because it is a record. Phone calls can be denied.
The longer you are in FS Olly the more you will understand the benefits of buck passing especially to those who have responsibility for such matters.

PS. Sorry about WB's reply. He's always grumpy on a Friday.

[Midland Retty]

Its all well and good saying "leave it to the council". The problem comes however when the mess hits the fan,the building is on fire, and crews are pulling out barbequed squatters in the wee small hours of the night.

Cue some very twitchy senior fire officers asking if anyone in their organisation knew about the premises, and if so what they did to try and have it secured. You might also get the local press making similar enquiries too. 

So as long as you can say you did all you could then great. Could you issue an enforcement notice? I reckon it might be worth a try, especially if the council fail to act, because despite it being their responsibility some are stating they just don't have the cash now to secure sites like this - there is only a limited budget set aside for securing buildings and those budgets soon get used up very quickly at the moment (sign of the times).

If the site is targetted by arsonists (rife at the moment), and the fire spreads to neighbouring buildings, and businesses what are the possible social/economic conseqences, let alone risk to life and limb? What about things like lost trade, loss or disruption to community resources, the drain on emergency service resources dealing with the blaze?

Somehow Im not sure it is a case of just leaving it to the council. My advice is if they don't play ball then don't just leave it there. Can one of your senior officers talk to one senior at the council? Can someone speak to the owners of the void premises?. If they don't bare any fruit maybe see if your legal team will go with the issue of an enforcement notice. Its got to be worth a punt in my view.

[wee brian]

Just tell the bleeding Local Authority - it isnt your job to do theirs!

PS. Sorry about WB's reply. He's always grumpy on a Friday.

What I'm trying to say is that the FRS has certain powers and duties. If you see a problem that is not within your responsibility then pass it on to the relevant authority. If they don't do their job - and that gives you a headache then give them some grief or get your boss to do it.

I often find that Fire Safety Offcers spend a lot of time trying to do somebody elses job without the necessary powers - this is a waste of your valuable time.

I understand why you do it but you end up making things worse because the council thinks you will do all the legwork for them.

[Mike Buckley]

Do what you can within your powers, letters etc. If you are still getting nowhere bat it upwards to your senior officers, possibly with your suggestions like 'I am thinking about an Enforcement Notice but wanted to check first', that way they make the decision and have to take the flak. Besides which often a quick chat senior officer to senior officer (in the golf club, lodge etc.) will get things sorted.

[Olig7]

A big thank you for all the responses. It is clear to me now that there is something that can be done, we just have to find the right person! Thanks for everyone taking the time to reply.