Car Fires

[Midland Retty]

"If they get away with it".

I have to say you have a very romantic view of valour, bravery etc. There is a huge difference between rock climbers and mariners and what we are talking about, its a totally seperate argument for what I think are obvious reasons.

Anyway we digress, back to car fires. They're best left alone and not tackled unless first aid firefigther has been trained specifically to do so (which they won't have been)

[kurnal]

Damn. I thought you would bite on the reference to amateur sailors Midland. Next time maybe. As you say back to car fires. Buses taxis and ADR vehicles have to carry powder extinguishers under th elicensing regimes. Wonder how many drivers have been trained to use them?

[Midland Retty]

Ah but Im a trained amateur sailor now Kurnal old friend, I went and did a pukka RYA course and everything, rather than just jump into a boat and go out to sea, hoping for the best! Im quite a responsible chap like that  

I can speak with a little knowledge about ADR drivers - quite a few of my chums / friends of the family are lorry drivers who hold their ADR ticket.

From what they have explained to me they all had to what is quite an indepth practical and theoretical section on first aid firefighting and incident safety. Not sure that one extinguisher would have much of an effect, the scene management aspect is perhaps more important.

Not sure about the input, if any, bus drivers and taxi drivers receive, but then again buses and taxis are outside the scope of RR(FS) of course (as is ADR)

[AnthonyB]

From my knowledge there is a vast difference between ADR and PSV. ADR get practical training and have  3, 6 & 12 kilo Powder extinguishers which pack quite a punch in trained hands against 2 & even 1 litre AFFF extinguishers on buses where there is minimal training (even in trained hands you can't do much with these sizes).

Extinguishers on PSV's are historical and I wonder when there was last a study into how useful they actually are, particularly since the demise of Halon

[lancsfirepro]

While we're on the subject...  1 litre foam extinguishers should not be on PSVs as EN3 makes no provision for 1 litre foam extinguishers.  It's also worth noting that although you sometimes find 3kg powders on vehicles carrying dangerous goods, there is a requirement that they carry a verification mark/seal (kitemark/lpcb etc) to state compliance with EN3.  However, most manufacturers don't have their 3kg powders kitemarked/lpcb approved because it's an expensive task and they're not a big seller.

[AnthonyB]

Yes EN3 doesn't allow liquid extinguishers under 2 litre, but 1 litre foams are still manufactured sold and fitted.

Like unpainted polished finish extinguishers they are legal to sell as they have CE marking to meet the Pressure Equipment Directive and are marked as complying with EN3 (generally with the caveat 'except in relation to colour' or 'capacity')

The actual current legislation for PCV's and Minibuses still refers to BS5423 and permits water, foam & halon, based on fire rating, not size. VOSA accepts EN3 in lieu of BS5423 and as long as it is water or foam, 8A &/or 21B, is full & in good condition and says EN3 on it they are happy.

Whilst not kite marked the 1 litre foams (& indeed some of the 3 kilo powders) are, depending on manufacturer, Lloyds Register, TUV  or similar 3rd party certified.

So unless VOSA start to get really picky, the 1 litre foams & 3 kilo powders will continue - in fact more manufacturers than ever offer the 1 litre foam and 3 kilo Powder.

My main gripe with the 3 kilo Powders is the lack of a  hose on the slimline 'transport' models

[lancsfirepro]

Yes EN3 doesn't allow liquid extinguishers under 2 litre, but 1 litre foams are still manufactured sold and fitted.

Fitted only by cowboys, that don't know better.  1 litre foams are not to EN3 for a reason, they are neither use nor ornament.  BS5423 has been superseded.

Like unpainted polished finish extinguishers they are legal to sell as they have CE marking to meet the Pressure Equipment Directive and are marked as complying with EN3 (generally with the caveat 'except in relation to colour' or 'capacity')

You cannot mark an extinguisher as complying with EN3 when it does not comply to EN3.  You may get a manufacturer writing it on the side but it cannot be verified and is worthless.  What you are confusing is that the fire rating specified in EN3 may have been verified by an independent body.  I sell the odd stainless/polished extinguisher and am aware of who says what in that regard.

The actual current legislation for PCV's and Minibuses still refers to BS5423 and permits water, foam & halon, based on fire rating, not size. VOSA accepts EN3 in lieu of BS5423 and as long as it is water or foam, 8A &/or 21B, is full & in good condition and says EN3 on it they are happy.

There was no reason to amend the legislation to state EN3 because the 1995 amendment just prior to EN3 (1996) adequately covered this in part c:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/305/made
3.  In regulation 35, after paragraph (2) there shall be inserted the following paragraphs—
“(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a vehicle if it carries apparatus for extinguishing fire which would meet the requirements of that paragraph were there substituted—
(a)for a reference in Schedule 4 to any British Standard, a reference to a corresponding standard;
(b)for the reference in Schedule 4 to a test fire rating of 8A or the reference in that Schedule to a test fire rating of 21B, a reference to an equivalent level of performance specified in the corresponding standard; and
(c)for the reference in paragraph (2)(b) to the appropriate British Standards Institution specification number, a reference to a marking indicating compliance with the corresponding standard.

for clarity, paragraph (2)(b) in the 1981 document is highlighted below:

(2) The apparatus referred to in paragraph (1) shall be—
(a)readily available for use,
(b)clearly marked with the appropriate British Standards Institution specification number, and
(c)maintained in good and efficient working order.

If you want to harp back to the 1981 version you will see that the 8A or 21B was 8A and 21B, for foams at least.  Funny how things get lost over time.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1981/257/made
A fire extinguisher which complies in all respects with the specification for portable fire extinguishers issued by the British Standards Institution, published on 31st December 1976 and numbered B.S. 5423: 77 and which either—
(a)contains water with a minimum test fire rating of 8A, or
(b)contains foam with a minimum test fire rating of 8A and 21B, or
(c)contains and is marked to indicate that it contains halon 1211 or halon 1301 with, in either case, a minimum test fire rating of 21B.

Whilst not kite marked the 1 litre foams (& indeed some of the 3 kilo powders) are, depending on manufacturer, Lloyds Register, TUV  or similar 3rd party certified.

See note above regarding fire tests only.

So unless VOSA start to get really picky, the 1 litre foams & 3 kilo powders will continue - in fact more manufacturers than ever offer the 1 litre foam and 3 kilo Powder.

Totally agree.  Although the arse of it is that the reason that 3kg powders don't get kitemarked is because of the cost; 1 litre foams don't get kitemarked is because they can't.

My main gripe with the 3 kilo Powders is the lack of a  hose on the slimline 'transport' models

EN3-7 2004 section 4.4 states "Extinguishers having a mass of extinguishing medium greater than 3kg, or a volume of extinguishing medium greater than 3 l shall be provided with a discharge hose."  There's an option that will permit you to fit a hose if you wish... if you do it needs to be at least 250mm in length but there's no requirement to fit a hose if you do not wish to on a 3kg powder.