New build fire signage

[TFEM]

I know the issue of fire signage is a contentious hot topic and I would prefer not to start another debate about the wrongs and rights of changing existing signage to conform to the new BS EN 7010 but what about new buildings?
A customer has just taken possesion of a brand new building which has taken 2 years approx to construct. All the emergency lighting luminaires are equipped with the old style Euro "man chasing fridge" icons. Once I pointed out that these do not conform to current standards, my customer challenged the construction company and building control have come back and said that the old standard was in place at the commencement of the work so that makes it right and they will not change them.
So who's responsibility is it to provide the correct signage? Surely if a standard or regulation or law even, changes half way through a project, the new one should be adopted. Shouldn't it?
Incidentally, all the other fire exit signage throughout the new build (ie without luminaires) is of the correct type!!
Thanks for your guidance.
John

[Tom Sutton]

The BS EN ISO 7010 2012 is now current but the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 and BS 5499 pt 4 has not been amended so the euro-signs are still legal but if you can persuade people to install the 7010 signs the better for them in the future.

[TFEM]

Thanks Tom. But who's responsibility is it? Is it because we are in a transitional stage? Are we in a transitional stage?
Why are architects/specifiers/builders still providing something that they (should) know will be "illegal" within a short period of time?
The builders don't care. The customer doesn't care. Building Control seems not to care. I care because I want to give the correct advice. But why should I care if no-one else does?
Frustration. Questions. Apathy.
Why?
John

[kurnal]

Its because the industry still has millions of emergency light fittings with the euro signs in stock that they have to shift and many architects, BCOs and most builders and electricians are not yet aware of 7010. There is an attitude out there that if it is green and white it will do and nobody cares about mixes of signage or correct use of directional arrows. It will take a few years for the change to filter through but the very fact that we do now have 7010 means that in the medium to long term things will improve.

Whether anyone would ever be harmed by this is debateable. Is the wrong sign or a mix of signs worse than no signs at all? In mu view its in a different league to a locked exit or obstructed exit route

[Tom Sutton]

Kurnal says it all. But who is responsible I think everybody involved and as the experts you should be educating those who don't know. It is a transitional stage and until the legislation makes it illegal it will remain that way. Also as the main problem is with illuminated signs, the ICEL should be doing more, and they still show the euro sign in their design guide. Long way to go.

[Tom Sutton]

Maybe not a long way to go.

Jim Creak • I am really glad to see that ICEL have published guidance in support of BS EN ISO 7010 and the principles of Safety Wayguidance under BS ISO 16069 http://www.channelsafety.co.uk/2012/11/icel-releases-technical-statement-on-emergency-exit-clear-signs/

It looks like in the near future all signs, standard and illuminated will use the same pictograms, at last.

[Mike Buckley]

In your dreams, look at the pragraph near the end of the statement:

"However, Local Authorities and Fire Authorities can require new installations to be of either format – Signs Directive or ISO until the situation is resolved by an amendment to the Directive – So check to be sure you are supplying the correct format for your project."

That should be a couple of decades by the time they have redrafted it and argued about it along national lines and lets not forget 'Call Me Dave' 's vow to reduce bureaucracy.

[Tom Sutton]

Mike I believe what they are saying the The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 is still in force so the euro signs are still legal until a new amended directive changes it. So you will not be able to force RP's, by law, to remove the euro signs in preference to the 7010 signs, until it has been amended.

However at the moment all the standard signs conform to 7010 and now all the illuminated signs should follow suit, so if new signs (standard or illuminated) are fitted they will eventually all be 7010 signs. The Lighting Industry Federation (LIF) is the only fly in the ointment but as they are closely associated with the ICEL I do not see any problems and I am not sure they deal with illuminated exit boxes anyway.