Author Topic: Security Bars  (Read 8551 times)

Offline Paul

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« on: August 18, 2005, 06:09:22 PM »
Would be grateful of everyones view on the following;

2 storey Office accomodation, 2 seperate businesses, one on each floor.  Both are served by a single exit that is at bottom of protected stair.  This being the only means of escape and route in / out also.

The ground floor windows have iron bars fixed in place to prevent unwanted guests.  However this really means that the windows can not be used for emergency exits etc.

The offices are both served by a shared L1 system.

Should these be removed / modified to open / left as is?

Thoughs please??

Paul

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2005, 10:54:37 PM »
Windows in non domestic premises have not been accepted as means of escape for many years - in older buildings and with the old Blue & Red books even though they reference them, there were strict constructional aspects & limitaions on who and how many could be expected to use them.

In other words the premises must have sufficient means of escape without recourse to windows. If the premises only have one stair then the liklihood is that they are so small that travel distance & exit width requirements were met with just that stair.

As the sole exit route is protected it's a case of good fire safety management by all that will ensure every one is safe, i.e. free from combustibles & clear of obstructions with closed fire doors.

Fire risk assessment should identify any unusual ignition & combustible hazards that could obstruct the doorway and eliminate them or relocate them.

A type L1 system should provide sufficient early warning as should type H (human!!!) due to the probable small size of the area, allowing for both prompt evacuation, but also prompt application of the means of fighting fire that are/should be provided to the premises for the purposes of securing means of escape.

A trade off has to be reached between security & fire so that one does not severely affect the efficacy of the other, in this case proper fire safety management, construction & systems should mean that the bars can be left if desired.

If the risk is assessed as being so great or on calculation the single exit doen't meet travel etc requirements then you are more likely looking at knocking through a new final exit door, not sending people scrabbling through windows, but I can't see it necessary.

I often get occupiers asking what happens if their single stair/door is compromised, but often point out that it's their failure to comply with the existing precautions that is causing the problem and if they respect the existing structural & alarm provision & actually do a decent FRA following it through with actions & compliance they should be fine
Anthony Buck
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2005, 01:37:55 PM »
Thanks Anthony,

Your thoughts are as mine.   Reason I ask is that inspecting fire officer has asked for them to be removed.

Just wondered if anyone else has had simular issues.


ThanksPaul

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2005, 11:51:15 PM »
Did he ask verbally or in writing? Verbally normally means he can't back it up if you object & uses the fact he's the fire officer to get people to do what he asks without question.

If it was in writing was it goodwill or a notice.

Whenever there is a disagrement with enforcement that cannot be settled verbally we insist on a written notice detailing legislation & reasons - 9/10 times they drop the matter.
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Offline Mark Newton

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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2005, 08:50:21 AM »
So what extra has he asked for on the first floor? Parachutes?

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2005, 10:45:16 PM »
A useful middle ground culd be to replace the bars with night shutters, but again is the expense reasonably practicable for the risk?
Anthony Buck
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messy

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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 12:01:07 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyB
Did he ask verbally or in writing? Verbally normally means he can't back it up if you object & uses the fact he's the fire officer to get people to do what he asks without question.

.


Antony, you are quite right. Howvever I am so pleased that Colin is away. He'd probably launch another attack towards a 'certain' met brigade on the strength of that quote

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 06:38:17 PM »
Yo Messy! I am back (did you miss me?). To be objective, even a certain met brigade could work out that bars on windows are not prohibited, though many will remember the committee of enquiry into woolworths fire recommended that they should not be permitted. But there can be no harm in many circumstances for all the reasons quoted above. And as you know I am always objective, so am delighted to tell you that, some years ago, after a very serious incident of violent attack on a number of young females in a hostel in a certain capital city, the FRS agreed with us that bars should be fitted to all ground floor windows of this sleeping risk on the basis that the occupants were much more likely to be raped that die from fire because they could not get out of ground floor windows in a building with prefectly adequate means of escape. Moreover, they could not envisage needing the windows for operational firefighting purposes.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2005, 06:53:12 PM »
Intersting point to raise is that there is no requiremnt for there to be any windows. If they dont want them barred just brick em up!

ian gough

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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2005, 06:58:14 PM »
Why an earth do that Wee Brian?

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2005, 07:09:08 PM »
Funnily enough, an SFPO reading this thread said something similar to me today, Wee B . If the windows were not there, would you ask for them, was his rather well-made point.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates