Landlord/Managing Agents Liability if a resident refuse to fit self closers to f

[Suttonfire]

Hi All,

 I would appreciate your views on the above scenario, i.e. if a leaseholder in a Housing Association block refuses to either allow a non fire rated flat entrance door to be replaced or a self closer to be fitted - in accordance with the findings of a fire risk assessment.

 If a lease already exists within which the front door to the flats has been established as being owned by the leaseholder, how could the Housing Association enforce that self closers etc are fitted? If they can't, what position would this put them in, in relation to the threat of enforcement action?

 Thanks

[Firey Fellow]

It would all come down to the terms of the lease as to whether the Housing Association could force the leaseholder to change the door.

In terms of enforcement, if the HA can demonstrate that they have exhausted every practical means of getting the leaseholder to change the doors, then the enforcing authority could pursue the leaseholder directly.

It is unlikely I would suggest that the housing association would face any action as they could argue that the leaseholder is causing them to fail in their duties under the RR(FS)O

[Suttonfire]

Thanks for replying. To clarify - The Enforcing Authority can take action against an individual flat owner under the Reg. Reform Fire Safety Order?

[Dinnertime Dave]

Fire authority can enforce on the occupier. Think it is article 5(4)

[Firey Fellow]

Thanks for replying. To clarify - The Enforcing Authority can take action against an individual flat owner under the Reg. Reform Fire Safety Order?

Yes, they can

As Dinnertime Dave states this is by virtue of the leaseholders responsibility under Article 5(4) of the RR(FS)O, if the fire authority prosecute the leaseholder it will be undertaken using Article 32 of the Order

[Suttonfire]

To add to the above. I have been advised by the Housing Association that they have been told by the Local Fire Officer that they do not have to retrospectively fit self closers to the flat entrance doors (as they never had any fitted in the first place).

I appreciate that it is generally not required to retrospectively upgrade fire precautions in line with current standards; however, my interpretation of the Purpose built flats guide is that self closers should certainly be retro fitted to flat entrance doors which did not have them originally.

[Dinnertime Dave]

To add to the above. I have been advised by the Housing Association that they have been told by the Local Fire Officer that they do not have to retrospectively fit self closers to the flat entrance doors (as they never had any fitted in the first place).

I think that the provision of self closers on flat entrance doors is essential and not up for negotiation.  Will the fire authority put that in writing?

[William 29]

To my knowledge no Fire Authority has served a Notice on any flat owner to replace the door or install a self closer but I understand that Greater Manchester had prepared documentation and sought legal advice to do so. It can be enforced under the Order as per comments already made.

[nearlythere]

I appreciate that it is generally not required to retrospectively upgrade fire precautions in line with current standards;

Are you sure SF? Does a statutory bar exist with Fire Risk Assessments under the various Orders?

The Order requires that a Fire Risk Assessment is reviewed so as to keep it up to date. To me that means the application of new standards - within reason.

[Dinnertime Dave]

To my knowledge no Fire Authority has served a Notice on any flat owner to replace the door or install a self closer but I understand that Greater Manchester had prepared documentation and sought legal advice to do so. It can be enforced under the Order as per comments already made.

William I think your right, whilst it may be that a FA can take action, I personally don't think it is in the public interest to do so. I have been In the situation of having to persuade 20 residents that to replace the self closers that had been removed. I did this through negotiations not enforcement and a very helpful housing association - But I did make it clear that enforcement was an option.

[William 29]

To my knowledge no Fire Authority has served a Notice on any flat owner to replace the door or install a self closer but I understand that Greater Manchester had prepared documentation and sought legal advice to do so. It can be enforced under the Order as per comments already made.

William I think your right, whilst it may be that a FA can take action, I personally don't think it is in the public interest to do so. I have been In the situation of having to persuade 20 residents that to replace the self closers that had been removed. I did this through negotiations not enforcement and a very helpful housing association - But I did make it clear that enforcement was an option.

Seems like a common sense approach to me for someone still on the dark side! 

[colin todd]

LFEPA chickened out when they were invited to serve notices on leaseholders. But having a fee-paying school education, I learned at a young age that all bully boys are cowards at heart.