The 'Order' and single private dwelling

[lingmoor]

Hi

There are some NHS residences (as mentioned on another thread) that are used for renting out to staff. One of the 'houses' (ground and first floor) is occupied by one family.

Now, the NHS provides for a cleaner to come in once a day and other maintenace staff as and when, although this is not a HMO and does not have to be licensed as such...does it still needs a fire risk assessment?

If a plumber comes into your house to fix your pipes then no FRA is done...however if it is a  daily event,  is this different?

Sorry if this question is stupid...but if you don't ask...

[Tom Sutton]

Its definition falls under a domestic premises and therefore it is not subject to the RR(FS)O. Does the employer of the cleaners have control of the cleaners workplace, then they are the RP and are subject to art 8 to 24. Complicated ain't it. 

[Clevelandfire 3]

Nope it aint really. Its a bit simples.

[Golden]

I agree its only complicated if you make it so ....... although some are making an industry out of deliberately making it complicated.

[Tom Sutton]

If it is simples and not complicated give him an answer. 

[lingmoor]

Tom

Yes, the Hospital Trust has control of the premises and they employ the cleaners

[Clevelandfire 3]

ok then i will.  no the order doesnt apply. despite it being a rented property it is domestic premises. it aint in multi occupation.
like your man said you dont have to do an fra if a plumber comes round yer house. simples.

[colin todd]

Clevey when you had this recent illness (of which I was sorry to hear) did they reprogamme you with some foreign, quasi american language module, not commonly occurring in the north east of England.

[Clevelandfire 3]

nah they didnt mate. sorry i forgot ya come from surrey and are dead posh.you agree with my fire safety reasonin tho dontchya dotty??

[Tom Sutton]

Sorry lingmoor I posted on the wrong thread.

I work from home. Do I have to carry out a fire safety risk assessment in respect of my home?

No.  The legislation is not intended to cover those working from home if the principal use of the premises remains a private dwelling. If, however, the premises form part of a business (even though there may be no employees) or a room/rooms are made available to paying guests on a commercial basis (such as in a guest house/bed and breakfast), then the premises may no longer be considered a private dwelling and may therefore be subject to the fire safety legislation for as long as they are used for that purpose.

I found the above on a legal website and it make sense and I think this would apply to your situation. Although it could be classed as a workplace for the cleaner the principle use is as a private dwelling and therefore not subject to the RR(FS)O. (No FRA required)

However the NHS does have a duty of care to the cleaner and should at least give some training in fire safety to ensure the cleaner has sufficient information to make a decision to leave, if he/she considers the premises a hazard.

For  a single domestic dwelling the FSO does not apply, but if the occupier employs a contractor, (cleaner, plumber) the house is now is their workplace, but because the contractor is unlikely to have control, he/she is not the RP, consequently no FRA,  but I think the contractor does have a duty of care.

However the problem arises when the owner or occupier does have control and uses part of a single private dwelling for non-domestic use. It then could be argued it does come under the FSO, but it seems to depend on the purpose it is used for and the degree of use. A small office doesn't but a B&B does.

It could be argued that the cleaner's employer (NHS) does have control, therefore is the RP and should conduct a FRA. However because its a low hazard situation a FRA would not be required, because in other domestic premises it would also not apply? It appears it depends on risk hazard, a cleaner, daytime risk, low hazard, and a B&B night-time risk, high hazard.

[kurnal]

It could be argued that the cleaner's employer (NHS) does have control, therefore is the RP and should conduct a FRA. .

No Tom. The Fire Safety Order does not apply to domestic premises. You are right that the NHS has a duty of care - to their employees and to the householder- but this duty is under the HASAWA 1974 and not the Fire Safety Order 

[William 29]

This may help taken from the Fire Safety Order CFOA Enforcers Guidance:

Supported living
Where occupants of single private dwellings receive regular health care from the employees of external agencies, the Order does not apply to the single private dwelling because the principal use of the premises is as a single private dwelling, to which the Order does not apply. Where supported living is provided within an institutional setting, the Order does apply. Guidance relating to the standards of fire safety to be provided in premises to which the Order does apply can be found in ?Fire Precautions in housing providing NHS ? Supported Living in the community - An Update of Health Technical Memorandum 88?.107 It should be noted that this document pre-dates the Order and that it provides advice commensurate with acknowledging that the premises are a home to the residents and that the application of fire safety should maintain a homely, non-institutional environment.

[Tom Sutton]

It could be argued that the cleaner's employer (NHS) does have control, therefore is the RP and should conduct a FRA. .

No Tom. The Fire Safety Order does not apply to domestic premises. You are right that the NHS has a duty of care - to their employees and to the householder- but this duty is under the HASAWA 1974 and not the Fire Safety Order  

Kurnal I fully accept that. (art 6) Its when you use part of a private domestic dwelling for non-domestic purposes like an office, is it not subject to the FSO but if you use it as a B&B or like William has indicated supported living, it is? It appears to be left up to the individual to decide, based on risk assessment I assume, with very little guidance.

[lingmoor]

Thank you all for your interesting replies.

All staff, including cleaners receive fire training annually. There is a current FRA in place but the Trust have now purchased the buildings and have asked for another FRA to be carried out, even though they are only ground and first floor and don't come under the 'Order' it will still be done.

Just thought I'd throw in a general description

Brick outer walls and tiled roof, built in 1995

There are two blocks, one block consists of 4 x 2 bedroom flats and the other block consisting of 7 x 4 bedroom houses.

Two of the flats are ground floor only, situated at each end of one block, and in the middle of these are two first floor flats (over the top of the two end flats)

The block of houses have communal lounge and kitchen, so do the two end flats...the 2 first floor flats are self contained with communal staircase.

There is a Part 6 Grade D LD2 in the houses and a Grade D LD3 in the flats...or is there?

The two first floor flats have smoke detector in the staircase...(tick for LD3) however there are call points at the top and bottom of the stairs, as well as a control panel at the top of the stairs, and there are sounders in the flats themselves

phew!