God Bless Fire Officers

[David Rooney]

Existing fire alarm installation installed circa 1990 to the 88 BS 5839.

The FO has pointed out that the largely surface clipped cabling needs metal ties / fixings ......

Probably two weeks work for a pair.

I understand the reasons "why" but as BS is a recommendation and not retrospective is her request enforcible and would this not set a precedent for recommending / enforcing every current BS recommendation on an older "compliant at the time" system???

[Owen66]

What's it clipped with ? - from that era, it's quite probable that two cables clipped together run surface used an "opened out" metal cored pyro clip (with brass dome head screws if it was a "proper" electrician who put it in)

Regards

Owen

[David Rooney]

Nooooo ....

Much is in minitrunking or simply tower clipped (nailed) to woooden joists through lof spaces.

Proper electricians would have used appropriate saddle clips for two or more cables, brass slotted dome head inch 8s and all the slots would be vertical so they wouldn't trap dust !!

 

[kurnal]

Its only enforceable if the fire officer has issued an enforcement notice. Otherwise its goodwill advice.

[Mike Buckley]

However if they send a letter as a notice of deficiencies or something similar watch out for signing the reply enclosed which not only acknowledges the letter but also commits to fixing the items or they will produce an enforcement notice for not doing the work.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Its only enforceable if the fire officer has issued an enforcement notice. Otherwise its goodwill advice.

I would like to see the Enforcement Notice with that on. Article anyone? Not enforceable in my opinion

[Firey Fellow]

Its only enforceable if the fire officer has issued an enforcement notice. Otherwise its goodwill advice.

A notice of deficiencies (or a report detailing deficiencies / failings found during an audit) does not constitute goodwill advice, but nevertheless to answer the OP question no it isn't enforceable.

I would be suprised for the reasons Dinnertime Dave has already mentioned to see this issue being included on any deficiency / failings reports / letters (informal enforcement) or an enforcement notice (formal enforcement).

[William 29]

Its only enforceable if the fire officer has issued an enforcement notice. Otherwise its goodwill advice.

I would like to see the Enforcement Notice with that on. Article anyone? Not enforceable in my opinion

Agreed not a life safety issue so not an RRO issue

[Graeme]

Send him up here. I have just been to look at new installs -all nail clipped.

[nearlythere]

Its only enforceable if the fire officer has issued an enforcement notice. Otherwise its goodwill advice.

I would like to see the Enforcement Notice with that on. Article anyone? Not enforceable in my opinion

Agreed not a life safety issue so not an RRO issue

Is this not a measure provided for the protection of firefighters people which we may well see extend to EL and general electrical cabling when their relevant CoP is next updated?

[kurnal]

Relevant persons? This would only be enforceable in respect of firefighter safety if the fire alarm was originally provided for the benefit of fire fighters. But it aint. Once the evacuation phase has passed it has no further role. In most cases.

[Mike Buckley]

So what about cables falling onto and entangling fire fighters as happened in Harrow Court and Shirley Towers?

I understand that relevant persons does not necessarily cover fire fighters entering a building but what is the legal aspect of endangering fire fighters by not installing alarm systems to standard and I also understand that the most recent electrical guidance calls for cabling in voids above suspended ceilings to be run on trays what issues does that raise?

[Graeme]

Its only enforceable if the fire officer has issued an enforcement notice. Otherwise its goodwill advice.

I would like to see the Enforcement Notice with that on. Article anyone? Not enforceable in my opinion

Agreed not a life safety issue so not an RRO issue

Is this not a measure provided for the protection of firefighters people which we may well see extend to EL and general electrical cabling when their relevant CoP is next updated?

Get the Data cable installers included . They have no concept of cable weight and support. I have seen ceiling tiles buckle under data cables strung across the grids.

[lyledunn]

Surely it is also a functional consideration. Plastic mini-trunking will fail very quickly in a fire (I would imagine) and would result in the cables being under strain and as a result they may become disconnected. Apart from the danger of entanglement of firefighters, which I would have thought deserved the utmost consideration regardless of what legislation, cables so installed may end up impeding escape. I have no idea whether it can be enforced or not, but the FO is right to at least point it out.

[kurnal]

Yes Lyle and to make matters worse the mini trunking is often fixed only with its self adhesive backing that always lets go as soon as it gets warm- even without there being a fire!