Author Topic: stripping  (Read 14201 times)

Offline PGtips

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stripping
« on: December 01, 2014, 08:59:24 AM »
Morning all - something that has bugged me for a while and I'm hoping for some received wisdom if possible.

Double doors.  I've seen fire officers happy with intumescing strips on one meeting stile only and others who say intumescing strip must be present on both meeting stiles.

If double is the norm, why is it that double anywhere else on the door-set is bad, i.e. if fitted on the frame AND the door, but double is OK on centre meeting stiles?

I'm sure the answer fits into the "bleeding obvious" category...but for now, it eludes me!  :)

Offline Golden

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Re: stripping
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2014, 09:54:36 AM »
Hi PG, I hope that you are well. Whenever I have an issue with fire doors its always best to resort to the Architectural And Specialist Door Manufacturers Association (ASDMA) Knowledge Centre as their guidance is very detailed - download from http://www.asdma.com/knowledge-centre/ and the correct answer of course is the seal configuration that passed the BS 476 tests  "Every test report will contain precise details of the sealing methods used and these should of course be replicated in practice." however when you have retrofits there is no test data but it is my belief that the seals should only be on one meeting style. I seem to remember seeing somewhere that opposing strips may act to push the leaves apart but that may be an urban myth or me completely making it up.

ASDMA knowledge centre can be found here http://www.asdma.com/knowledge-centre/

Offline PGtips

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Re: stripping
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2014, 10:42:44 AM »
Hi yes - I'm well thanks, yes the opposing strip info is the same as I have - that it may push the leaves apart - which is why I'm confused when it is requested on double meeting styles?

Been through the ASDMA stuff before and couldn't find the answer although I'll have another look...you've hit the nail on the head - doors with no certification or test evidence.


Offline kurnal

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Re: stripping
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2014, 11:11:45 PM »
Do the seal manufacturers offer any guidance on how their seals should be used?

Offline Auntie LIn

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Re: stripping
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 09:41:53 PM »
Yes, all reputable seal manufacturers should give clear guidance on how their seals should be used.   

From my point of view, I would agree that it's not a good idea to fit intumescent seals directly opposite each other at the meeting edges of double doors for exactly the reason quoted above - that if it's a pressure-generating seal, they push against each other and can push the doors out of line and ultimately apart.

However, double leaf doorsets tend to need more sealant at the meeting edges than you would expect at the hanging edges or the leading edge of a single door.   You can either do this by putting all the seal into one meeting edge, or you can split it between the two edges, but making sure that the seals are offset, so don't activate against each other.   In the early days, when we had BS476:  Part 8 it was common practice to put 30mm of seal at the meeting edges - 1 x 10mm at the mid line of one meeting edges and 2 x 10mm with one strip 5mm either side of the centre line of the opposing meeting edge.   Now with BS 476:  Part 22 and of course BS EN 1634 the amount of sealant needed is greater than in the past - talk to the seal manufacturers (you'll find links to several on the ASDMA website) and follow their guidance.   Remember that intumescent seals are not all the same so you can't just mix and match to your heart's content.

.....and I thought that when the subject was 'stripping' I was going to find a hunky fireman wearing his boots and not much else!

Offline kurnal

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Re: stripping
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 10:47:28 PM »
I would hate to think you were dissapointed Aunty Lin. Can I be of any help? You asked for hunky,  I can offer more than that - chunky!

Offline nearlythere

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Re: stripping
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2014, 05:34:12 AM »
Yes, all reputable seal manufacturers should give clear guidance on how their seals should be used.   

From my point of view, I would agree that it's not a good idea to fit intumescent seals directly opposite each other at the meeting edges of double doors for exactly the reason quoted above - that if it's a pressure-generating seal, they push against each other and can push the doors out of line and ultimately apart.

However, double leaf doorsets tend to need more sealant at the meeting edges than you would expect at the hanging edges or the leading edge of a single door.   You can either do this by putting all the seal into one meeting edge, or you can split it between the two edges, but making sure that the seals are offset, so don't activate against each other.   In the early days, when we had BS476:  Part 8 it was common practice to put 30mm of seal at the meeting edges - 1 x 10mm at the mid line of one meeting edges and 2 x 10mm with one strip 5mm either side of the centre line of the opposing meeting edge.   Now with BS 476:  Part 22 and of course BS EN 1634 the amount of sealant needed is greater than in the past - talk to the seal manufacturers (you'll find links to several on the ASDMA website) and follow their guidance.   Remember that intumescent seals are not all the same so you can't just mix and match to your heart's content.

.....and I thought that when the subject was 'stripping' I was going to find a hunky fireman wearing his boots and not much else!
Can be arranged.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Auntie LIn

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Re: stripping
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2014, 03:04:44 PM »
Ooooh!   Will I be able to cope with the excitement? (or more to the point - will you??).   Thanks for the offers guys - when you've found another 4 I'll start training you up for the Full Monty display team.   From what you say, you are going to be more likely candidates for that than the Chippendales.   :'(

Offline nearlythere

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Re: stripping
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2014, 04:19:56 PM »
Ooooh!   Will I be able to cope with the excitement? (or more to the point - will you??).   Thanks for the offers guys - when you've found another 4 I'll start training you up for the Full Monty display team.   From what you say, you are going to be more likely candidates for that than the Chippendales.   :'(
Believe it Auntie. The Chips are a bunch of nancys compared to the real thing.
Have you still still got your pouch K? I know there was an awful riot the last time you threw it into the crowd. Or was that a mass panic evacuation?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

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Re: stripping
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2014, 11:42:51 PM »
Not at the moment NT  I had to lend it to Santa.

Offline PGtips

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Re: stripping
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2014, 01:07:59 PM »
Thanks for the replies chaps (and chapess)  - according to the manufacturers on this occasion the seal is supposed to be on each door, but not offset.


Offline Auntie LIn

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Re: stripping
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2014, 03:03:30 PM »
If that's what the manufacturer (and not just the bloke installing it) says PG, then you've got to go with it.   However.....I'd ask him to let me have that in writing as a CMA precaution.