REPORT OF THE REGULATORY REVIEW GROUP ON THE FIRE (SCOTLAND) ACT

[kurnal]

i apologise for my arrogance. I was not intending to suggest that consultants are superior to IOS. I was an IO for very many years.

During the changeover I did  have a number of friends on the CFOA East Midlands regional panel and on the National team  at the time and received many briefings on their progress and the strategic and  political drive behind it. This included the people who put the training package together and who delivered it on a regional basis. We discussed the new regime at length, but only on the basis of friends in the pub, this left me with an understanding of the system but if I am doing anybody a disservice I apologise for any offence. I know the  IOs will follow their instructions as diligently as the system allows.  

I also know that many fire alarm, emergency lighting certificates I see signed by electricians are deficient and such deficiencies are often missed without comment together with their associated installations which  fall wide of the mark. And I expect any IO or consultant would probably spot those deficiencies if we look. But the system does not appear to allow for the IOs or a physical check if the RP and the certs look ok.

From the RP point of view the RP  considers that by employing professional engineers  they are using competent people, being diligent and  and explains with sincere wide eyed honesty that all is as it should be.  And is convinced of this and to be fair is being diligent to the extent of their control. For example  some of the problems I refer to include Emergency lighting wired back to dedicated MCBs on the distribution board, this is  so so common and rife in so many care homes. But this fact is rarely reported on the inspection and test certificate, indeed many sparkies are adamant that under BS7671 this is how it should be (despite the over riding recommendations of BS5266) And to be fair IOS have been visiting these places annually and reporting on them since the old registered homes act days but the problems still have not been reported. That worries me.

Another regular is those  Fire Alarm systems with hold open devices and locks  wired from the sounder circuits. Again this is never reported by the sparkies on inspection and test certificates in my experience. So without a check how will the IO know or the RP know anything is wrong?

I think if  you don't look you don't find. That is my only point.

[wee brian]

Cant help thinking that it shouldn't have taken two hours for this chat to have taken place. the idea is that you take a decco, suss the firm out and then move on ASAP to the next building.

You could spend hours in a building finding bits and pieces but much better to work your way down the list till you find the place that's going to kill people.

[colin todd]

Brian, The job appears to be in NI.  You need to remember that life goes more slowly there; time has less meaning.  The nice friendly officer would have a nice chat about common friends, the family, where they are going on holiday next year.  Then a nice cup of coffee. A wee look at the documentation. consideration of the FRA, there's lots to chat about.  Then its lunch time, so off he went for lunch.

And what's wrong with all of that. Would you rather he adopted the bully boy tactics of certain English FRS, intimidating the duty holder, cross examining them like a prosecution barrister and going off with the threat, you will be hearing from us!

Which approach is better in gaining cooperation from duty holders?

[Messy]

In my LFB IO days, I preferred the Northern Ireland calm & pragmatic approach over the more jobsworth methods. I never had a complaint or argument with any punter, whilst I served with colleagues who used more confrontational methods who were sometimes threatened and assaulted by RPs. One even had long, heated, unnecessary and expensive clash with a fire consultant on the phone.

I have spent easily 2hrs plus in low & medium risk SME type premises on many occasions, where staff really haven't got a clue about FS, but are keen to do the right thing.

So what should I do??? Go back to the office, draw up a useless notice of deficiencies or perhaps an aggressive enforcement notice and send it to the RP? In certain circumstances, I am simply making hours of work for myself in following up the original visit and then extending the time period and then threatening "bully boy tactics"(or prosecution as we called them) - Or do I spend a quality 2 hours over a cup of Gold Blend and some milk chocolate Hob Nobs 'educating and informing' the willing member of the public to get exactly the same result? Its a no brainer!

I will even admit suggesting punters takes notes and then walking around whilst dictating what they might want to record in their FRA (aka , doing it for them!). At then end of the process I hope I have reduced the risk of harm as well as ensuring compliance - all in two hours - a slightly more efficient way of working than ignoring the risk or spending days on useless & unnecessary red tape just so I can present the case to my boss in the hope to be 'noticed'

It was also good practice for life in the real world at the end of my contract

[Golden]

Messy I agree - as an ex-SFSO within the LFB I've spent most of the night on a few occasions assisting RPs in remedying faults to ensure their business is fit to open for business the next day. On the few occasions its been necessary to take enforcement action this is only after spending some time with the RP explaining the options - never had a problem with them especially when you take time. Its a bit like Scotsmen - you get one miserable ('dour') personality albeit a fantastic tennis player and many people consider that they're all like that when most that I've met are quite charming and likeable chaps - many of them live in England too.

[Dinnertime Dave]

In my LFB IO days, I preferred the Northern Ireland calm & pragmatic approach over the more jobsworth methods. I never had a complaint or argument with any punter, whilst I served with colleagues who used more confrontational methods who were sometimes threatened and assaulted by RPs. One even had long, heated, unnecessary and expensive clash with a fire consultant on the phone.

I have spent easily 2hrs plus in low & medium risk SME type premises on many occasions, where staff really haven't got a clue about FS, but are keen to do the right thing.

So what should I do??? Go back to the office, draw up a useless notice of deficiencies or perhaps an aggressive enforcement notice and send it to the RP? In certain circumstances, I am simply making hours of work for myself in following up the original visit and then extending the time period and then threatening "bully boy tactics"(or prosecution as we called them) - Or do I spend a quality 2 hours over a cup of Gold Blend and some milk chocolate Hob Nobs 'educating and informing' the willing member of the public to get exactly the same result? Its a no brainer!

I will even admit suggesting punters takes notes and then walking around whilst dictating what they might want to record in their FRA (aka , doing it for them!). At then end of the process I hope I have reduced the risk of harm as well as ensuring compliance - all in two hours - a slightly more efficient way of working than ignoring the risk or spending days on useless & unnecessary red tape just so I can present the case to my boss in the hope to be 'noticed'

It was also good practice for life in the real world at the end of my contract

messy, I totally agree with your way of enforcement. However, this method only works with confidence and competence. It took me a a few years to see the light. As an IO you can have an argument everyday if you want one and some do. I have now jumped ship, and despair at some of the items IO try and enforce. The main issue I face is convincing my employer that IO aren't alway right, well accept for me  

[colin todd]

Nice friendly well trained LFB I/Os.. yes of course I believe they exist, in the same way as I believe that the presents I will open the day after tomorrow will come from an Old Geezer in Lapland. I certainly don't suppose any of them will come from the second best FRS in the whole of .............. London, though they were kind enough to give us two consultancy jobs in 2015.

[Messy]

Nice friendly well trained LFB I/Os.. yes of course I believe they exist, in the same way as I believe that the presents I will open the day after tomorrow will come from an Old Geezer in Lapland. I certainly don't suppose any of them will come from the second best FRS in the whole of .............. London, though they were kind enough to give us two consultancy jobs in 2015.

....and a Merry Christmas to you Colin - full of Christmas cheer I see!!!!

[colin todd]

Always, Davey, always.  Especially for my very good friends in the 2nd finest FRS in the whole of London.