Author Topic: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation  (Read 11208 times)

Offline Bruce89

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Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« on: January 31, 2016, 10:42:43 AM »
Apologies if going over old ground but a colleague attended a meeting in London with LFB and was told that sheltered accomodation should be provided with analogue addressable alarm systems, is this correct or is he confusing this with residential care homes although even then my understanding was a recommendation of addressable systems and not necessarily analogue addressable.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2016, 11:21:42 PM »
You are correct.  The second greatest fire service in the whole of London is wrong, not for the first time.  They have great difficulty in understanding the difference between sheltered and care homes in my experience.  While I acknowledge the difficulties arising from forms of things like extra care that get very close to a care home, they manage the difference without any problem in Scotland.  As always its a training issue.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2016, 07:59:13 AM »
Colin if that is so why does BS 5839 part 6 2013 state in "Information about this document",

e)  Addressable fire detection and fire alarm systems are recommended for sheltered housing in which detectors within dwellings are connected to the fire alarm system in the common parts.

I accept it only applies to certain situation but seems to be a conflicting statement to what you have said?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 08:01:07 AM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2016, 11:08:06 PM »
in which detectors within dwellings are connected to the fire alarm system in the common parts.  Exactly, Tam.  Exactly. Most modern sheltered housing does not have detectors in dwellings connected to the communal system, they have smoke alarms connected to the social alarm system. And where did the analogue bit come from.  No contradiction Tammy.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline K Lard

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2016, 03:50:11 PM »

1.   In accordance with Article-30 of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 (see Appendix-A) Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service has served enforcement notices on 4 blocks of flats deemed Sheltered Housing schemes by a local authority detailed as follows:
Location   Reason
Premises-A   
1)   Article-8 General Fire Precautions
2)   Article-9 Risk Assessment
3)   Article-11 Fire Safety Arrangements
4)   Article 13 Fire-fighting and detection
5)   Article-18- Safety Assistance
6)   Article-19 Provision of information to employees
7)   Article-21 Training
Premises-B   1)   Article-8 General Fire Precautions
2)   Article-9 Risk Assessment
3)   Article-11 Fire Safety Arrangements
4)   Article 13 Fire-fighting and detection
5)   Article-18- Safety Assistance
6)   Article-19 Provision of information to employees
7)   Article-21 Training
Premises-C   1)   Article-8 General Fire Precautions
2)   Article-9 Risk Assessment
3)   Article-11 Fire Safety Arrangements
4)   Article-13 Fire-fighting and detection
5)   Article-14 Emergency Routes and exits
6)   Article-17 Maintenance
7)   Article-18- Safety Assistance
8)   Article-19 Provision of information to employees
9)   Article-21 Training
Premises-D   1.   Article-8 General Fire Precautions
2.   Article-9 Risk Assessment
3.   Article-11 Fire Safety Arrangements
4.   Article 13 Fire-fighting and detection
5.   Article-18- Safety Assistance
6.   Article-19 Provision of information to employees
7.   Article-21 Training


2.   What is the concept of ?Sheltered Housing??
Sheltered Housing gives residents the opportunity to live somewhere with their own front door and keep their independence, but have the security of help and advice at hand when needed.  Each scheme has an allocated Sheltered Housing Officer who is responsible for the day to day management of the scheme and the support of residents living at the scheme.  The Sheltered Housing Officer who manages each scheme has equal responsibilities to a number of people.  It is important to note that the residents of sheltered sites still need the vital support and care of their relatives and friends.  This local authority has adopted a ?stay put policy? at its sheltered accommodation blocks.

3.   General Expectations for a ?Stay Put? Policy
The expectation is that the following will be in place within premises with a stay put policy and that these will form the basis of the premises? fire risk assessment;
?   The building meets modern standards of construction.
?   An approved fire alarm system is provided throughout and is properly maintained.
?   Acceptable fire safety management procedures are provided and affirmed in writing.
?   There is a history of satisfactory fire safety management within the particular premises.
?   There are suitable training arrangements in place for staff and residents and a record of such is kept.

4.   Fire Safety Inspections
Sheltered Housing Accommodation may be inspected in accordance with the HM Government Guides (published by the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG)) ?Fire Safety Risk Assessment: Sleeping Accommodation? or ?Residential Care? dependent upon the circumstances of the residents;

4.1.   Sleeping Accommodation Guide
?   This guide applies to premises where the main use is for sleeping accommodation? in the common areas of sheltered accommodation where care is not provided.
?   Where care is provided... refer to residential care guide.

4.2.   Residential Care Guide
?   This guide is intended for all employers, managers, occupiers and owners of permanently staffed premises providing residential care where some or all of the residents require assistance in the event of a fire e.g. where residents may not be able to make their way to a place of total safety unaided.
?   This guide is not intended for use in sheltered accommodation where no care is provided.

5.   Application of the Fire Safety Order to blocks of flats has always been problematic so much so that in July 2011 the Local Government Group issued a consultation document entitled ?Fire Safety in Purpose Built Blocks of Flats? which following amendment was issued via CFOA Circular 2011-038 on 25th October 2011.

6.   The local authority made a submission to MAWWFRS in which they correctly stated that the new guidance endorses the use of ?stay put? policies in purpose built blocks of flats subject to a 1-hour fire resistance criteria being achieved (Approved Document B (2007) Section-8 Compartmentation).  However, they omitted to mention the following sections from the new  guide which are of importance;

6.1.   Section 19- Stay Put Policy
19.1 A ?stay put policy? involves the following approach:

1)   When a fire occurs within a flat, the occupants alert others in the flat, make their way out of the building and summon the fire and rescue service.  (Comment- Underlining added and assumes the occupants are ambulant and can make their own way out unaided).

2)   If a fire starts in the common parts, anyone in these areas makes their way out of the building and summons the fire and rescue service.  All other residents not directly affected by the fire would be expected to ?stay put? and remain in their flat unless directed to leave by the fire and rescue service.  (Comment- Underlining added and assumes the occupants are ambulant and can make their own way out unaided).

3)   It is not implied that those not directly involved who wish to leave the building should be prevented from doing so.  Nor does this preclude those evacuating a flat that is on fire from alerting their neighbours so that they can also escape if they feel threatened. (Comment- This assumes the occupants are ambulant and can make their own way out unaided).

6.2.   Section 70- Sheltered Housing
1)   Paragraph 70.5- The limitations of the residents should be taken into account when undertaking assessments in sheltered housing schemes, and any particular concerns resulting from the vulnerability of any residents should be addressed.  However, the recommendations in this guide for sheltered schemes are based on the assumption that residents are able to escape unaided from their own flats and can make their way to a place of safety using the common means of escape. (Comment- Underlining added.  If residents are non-ambulant then they guide does not apply.)

It would appear that when the concept of sheltered housing was devised such accommodation was provided for people who were deemed ambulant and therefore able to make their own way out of their flat in the event of a fire.  However over time two issues have arisen which now cause problems for respective local authorities.

1)   The occupants have grown older and some have become non-ambulant.  This means that they are now living in sheltered housing blocks which may no longer comply with fire safety requirements.

2)   Due to a lack of care facilities elsewhere (and perhaps awareness of fire safety issues) local authorities are now housing non-ambulant persons in sheltered housing blocks which do not meet requisite fire safety standards.

Both matters have created the predicament that local authorities and the Fire Service now find themselves in, although one solution to alleviate the matter could be the provision of retro-fitting sprinkler systems.  Following two meetings between the local authority in question and MAWWFRS, the following has been agreed;
1)   The enforcement notices deadlines have been extended until March 2012.
2)   The local authority will undertake invasive premises surveys and complete fire risk assessments of the specified premises, drawing up an action plan to address identified matters.
3)   The local authority will cease housing non-ambulant persons in their sheltered housing stock until such time as this matter is resolved.
4)   Existing non-ambulant persons will stay in their premises but the local authority will seek to address the identified fire safety issues.
5)   This matter will be referred to Welsh Local Government Association?s Fire and Rescue Panel for deliberation.

7.   In their letter dated 23rd November 2011 to MAWWFRS it was evident that the local authority was quoting from the draft ?Fire Safety in Purpose Built Blocks of Flats? guidance document and not the approved version since quotes used did not match the new paragraph numbering.  They also ?cherry picked? paragraphs and/or sections as opposed to utilising the whole of a guidance document.
One section quoted by the local authority to support their stance was the expectation that ?there will be a reliance on rescue by the fire and rescue service in the event that residents cannot escape by themselves?. Though this is quoted in paragraph 79.10 of the ?Fire Safety in Purpose built Blocks of Flats? guide it actually contradicts the ?Residential Care? guide which states in paragraph 3.4.3 Escape Routes- ?Once a fire has started, been detected and a warning given, everyone in your premises should be able to escape to a place of total safety, either unaided or with assistance, but without the help of the fire and rescue service.  However, some people with disabilities may need help from staff who will need to be designated for this purpose?.

8.   Summary
In our opinion the ?Fire Safety in Purpose built Blocks of Flats? guide does not apply to sheltered housing accommodation where non-ambulant persons are present due to the caveat contained in paragraph 70.5  and therefore local authorities should utilise the ?Residential Care? guide.

Offline K Lard

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2016, 03:54:58 PM »
Regarding my last post - does anyone know the outcome of the enforcement notices? Does anyone agree with the sentiment of the notice i.e. the use of the residential care guide rather than the Flats Guide?

Offline kurnal

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 04:00:17 PM »
Like you I would love to know the outcome of this case.
Clause 8 seems the most controversial aspect as it is saying that once I become ill or infirm and non ambulant my home is no longer deemed to be domestic premises. Instinct alone tells me this is totally wrong.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 09:44:12 PM »
Give them independence is what I say (after Scotland of course).. I have long believed the world has gone mad and that Big Al and I are little islands of sanity, though I am not really sure about Big Al.
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Offline William 29

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2016, 10:16:40 PM »
Absolute nuts! However, this is probably the view still of some fire authorities. They seem to be very concerned over such schemes at the moment and if they find a breach of FR the size of a pencil hole in a riser cupboard then stay put must not be allowed!

The daft thing is the opposite of stay put is full evac, and this can't be implemented either (quickly anyway) where the fire alarm would not support a full evac policy and/or there are no staff on site to implement such a policy.

This is a national issue and needs to be taken forward as such, sheltered schemes designed for the over 55's where the residents are now 85, 95 plus no longer works. So what do we do? Tell them they cant live in the "home" they have lived in for the last 40 years as it is not suitable?
Install waster mist systems in the flat concerned or retro fit sprinklers? I just hope that when some of these fire officers retire they don't end up in sheltered accommodation.

Also can anyone tell me what is the difference in a purpose built block of flats where there are known residents that can't self evacuate and have a private care package? No one seems to be bothered about these??

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2016, 10:51:08 PM »
Are the residents in Sheltered/Supported living schemes safer in building that is well maintained with working  fire safety provisions or living in isolation in their old house with all of its problems? Sometimes my previous employers get their priorities wrong.

I have visited a scheme today that was built in the early 80's, it doesn't have any fire stopping above the cross corridor doors - it never has. All the walls to the flats and staircases above false ceiling are in good condition and have no issues. Don't get me wrong the fire stopping will be done, but if we don't do it, will anybody be at a significant risk? Corridors are sterile with the exception of a small seating area in an alcove (as described in 5588) but the IO says you can't have it and hasn't got access to the document. We have a good detection system. Would our money be better spent on door refurbishment at a different scheme?

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire alarm standard for sheltered accomodation
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2016, 07:47:21 PM »
Wullie, its not the ones who are about to retire into sheltered housing that are the problem, its the younger ones who have not been properly trained. Like the ones who gave poor old Suppers grief when he was trying to find new accommodation for himself today.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates