Author Topic: Residential - stay or go?  (Read 9103 times)

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2480
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Residential - stay or go?
« on: February 23, 2017, 06:18:57 PM »
Imagine a early 20th century block of flats, that uses solid traditional brick construction throughout, including internally between flats and common areas and easily achieves 60 minutes FR.

Front doors and cross corridor doors are notional FD30, but are being replaced with FD30S as part of a revamp.

TD's within those in the LGA Guide, flat layouts as per current standards, Part 6 Grade D LD2 to all flats.

The only anomaly is that the only smoke control is via 1.5sqm of opening windows at each floor level off the stairwells which are open to the two (subdivided) corridor sections.


Enclosing the stairs would leave no smoke control at all to corridors and retrofitting smoke shafts to current standards is impractical.

Full alarm could be provided to include flats, but not preferred by site.

Stay put or full evacuate? Opinions (different ones are already floating about, just curious)
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline Dinnertime Dave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2017, 08:47:05 PM »

Stay put subject to satisfactory loft spaces and floors.

With regards to enclosing the stairs - How many flats per floor is there?

And opening windows are acceptable where flats opening directly onto stairs, less than 6 storeys according to purpose built flats guide.



 

Offline William 29

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
    • http://www.tfsltd.net
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2017, 09:09:45 PM »
Sounds ok to me for stay put subject to what has already been said, how many floors? The upgrading to new FD30s is a bonus for you.

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2017, 08:29:45 PM »
Stay put.

you could go simultaneous evac, but most people will ignore the alarm and the ones that don't will get in the way of the fire service/end up in hospital with smoke inhalation.

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2480
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 07:23:36 PM »
No more than 6 off each stair landing, six floors, one block has a single 7th floor flat.

It stretches to a little extent the guides limits, but then again I was considering keeping the common alarm without sounders as it has an ARC link and they call the LFB who respond as there haven't been false alarm issues
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline stevew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • http://firesureuk.co.ok
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2017, 07:10:49 PM »
Just watched an article on the London News re the Lakanal fire.  The LFB representative understandably recommend a 'stay put' policy.
With many such buildings out there, purpose built and converted I will always advise any occupant who believes there to be a fire in the building to evacuate.  Before anyone throws building standards and statistics at me I base my opinion on one factor.  THE HUMAN ELEMENT.  Too many people have apologised for failures after the event.  Horse/stable door comes to mind.


Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2017, 10:07:59 AM »
The stay put approach provides for the fact that people will do whatever they want to and the building should cater for that.

However, particularly in a single stair building, fire service intervention will usually result in smoke getting into the stairway or corridors. evacuating at that point just results in a bunch of people getting smoke injuries.

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2017, 04:07:40 PM »
I am with you stevew I think a better name for the procedure is "Stay put if it is safe to do so" too many people misinterpret the actions required and think people should stay put until the FRS says evacuate it should be the individual who says "it's about time I got out of here".

Check out https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/ec-inquisition-and-narrative-verdict-catherine-hickman.pdf.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2017, 11:45:19 PM »
How about Stay Put Unless Not Kool.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2017, 12:46:41 AM »
I personally prefer the term 'delayed evacuation' to give the idea that people should expect to have to evacuate the building. However I think we are stuck with 'stay put'.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 03:30:40 PM »
I personally prefer the term 'stay put' to give the idea that people should  not expect to have to evacuate the building. However I think we are stuck with 'stay put' in any case.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Bruce89

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 06:50:31 PM »
Never mind stay put, all this semantics has driven me to have an evacuation of my own  ;D

Offline Davo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1144
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2017, 09:04:02 PM »
Anthony

How long for the FB to arrive?
Will they automatically turn out or ask for confirmation?
Type of occupancy, student, seniors etc etc?

davo

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2480
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Re: Residential - stay or go?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2017, 09:10:46 PM »
General needs, no specific risk group.
Currently turnout without call challenging, false alarm record very low and mostly when FA system was first fitted.
Turnout time just under 10 mins for nearest station and just over for next nearesy based on normal road speed, no blues & twos
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36