fire r.a. and inner rooms

[alonso]

hello all,
           we've been asked to quote for extra smokes in a staff room with minimal risk which includes a kitchen within the staff room area. The kitchen has some small cooking appliances along with a heat detector, extinguisher, blanket etc and a self closing fire door.
               The staff room has a couple of vending machines, a (disconnected and disused) clothes dryer and chairs/lockers so it seems to be low risk to me.
               I have found the risk assessment from 2012 (?!) and it states: 'the kitchen is an inner room to the staff room. There is a vision panel in the kitchen door but it does not allow vision into the main area of the staff room. It is recommended that automatic smoke detection is installed in the staff room'
               Does this sound reasonable? Surely by that rational you would also need vision panels everywhere else so you could see if there was a fire if you can't see the escape route is clear?
                 What worries me is he goes on to state in other parts of the r.a. that other 'inner rooms' do not need a.f.d. because 'the self closing door is kept open'. Quote: 'keeping the door open enhances the means of escape from *** as it will allow an early warning to any person in the *** of any fire threatening the escape route through the ******* ******
                This doesn't seem to make sense to me. He seems happy to have fire doors propped open so people can see a fire coming? Or have I missed something?

      thanks, all...

[Tom Sutton]

Check out https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441669/BR_PDF_AD_B2_2013.pdf 3.36 and 3.50

[SeaBass]

Alonso, this is all about access rooms and inner rooms.  In this case, the staff room is the access room and the kitchen is the inner room. If the only escape route from an inner room is via the access room, then early warning of fire must be provided to people in the inner room. The three generally accepted methods of doing this are: leaving a 500mm gap between the had of the dividing wall and the soffit, providing a vision panel so that the access room remains in view of occupants of the inner room, or providing smoke detection (heat detectors respond too slowly to provide suitable early warning)  in the access room and ensuring that the FA sounders are audible in the inner room.

I have known people to remove doors between access rooms and inner rooms, thereby effectively making the two rooms  a single room, and similarly, if it can be guaranteed that the door would remain open at all times that the inner room is occupied, it could be argued that the risk was suitabley controlled, although I think that it would be a tough one to manage. I wouldn't hang my reputation on such an arrangement.   

[nearlythere]

Vision panels are a "solution" so long as they provide the vision necessary to ensure that persons in the inner room "notice" smoke in the access room. But that usually isn't the case. At the design stage of an inner/access room situation people will say that the problem would be solved with the provion of a vision panel. But how can you say that without knowing the layout of the inner room. People or a person might have their backs to the vision panel and therefore wouldn't notice something in the access room.

To me the vision panel and partition gap solutions are really a nonsense and are more a box ticking exercise rather than a Fire Safety solution. Detection in access room for me always.

[Dinnertime Dave]

To me the vision panel and partition gap solutions are really a nonsense and are more a box ticking exercise rather than a Fire Safety solution. Detection in access room for me always.

Especially true when the panel can be 0.1m squared.

[AnthonyB]

To me the vision panel and partition gap solutions are really a nonsense and are more a box ticking exercise rather than a Fire Safety solution. Detection in access room for me always.

Especially true when the panel can be 0.1m squared.

Or when someone sticks blinds or sheets of paper over them for privacy....

I think the VP and 500mm gap have been around for so long they date back to when fire alarm systems were rudimentary and smoke detection relatively rare, AFD is probably the better default answer these days

[alonso]

Sorry but i didn't make it clear this is an L5/m system and the only afd is in the external electrical and boiler rooms and the kitchen (the inner rooms) so i was surprised they were asking for afd in the staff room and not in the main area of the building it leads into nor in other areas which could be used as escape corridors. I guess thinking about it that this is the only inner room with another area between it and the outside so maybe thats why they asked forafd.

Also there are vision panels in the kitchen and staff room doors. I never knew this was taken into consideration. He also stated that because the staff room is L shaped not all of the staff room can be seen through the vision panel and this was a fActor in asking for afd.

Thanks for the explanation dveryone.

I'm still surprised that he recommended other fire doors be kept held open to warn of fire in another area!

[nearlythere]

Sorry but i didn't make it clear this is an L5/m system and the only afd is in the external electrical and boiler rooms and the kitchen (the inner rooms) so i was surprised they were asking for afd in the staff room and not in the main area of the building it leads into nor in other areas which could be used as escape corridors. I guess thinking about it that this is the only inner room with another area between it and the outside so maybe thats why they asked forafd.

Also there are vision panels in the kitchen and staff room doors. I never knew this was taken into consideration. He also stated that because the staff room is L shaped not all of the staff room can be seen through the vision panel and this was a fActor in asking for afd.

Thanks for the explanation dveryone.

I'm still surprised that he recommended other fire doors be kept held open to warn of fire in another area!

Alonso. In some buildings afd is not always really necessary unless it is really necessary.  Your thinking is probably contaminated with the thoughts of some others who don't know or maybe know a little about everything. These people should be avoided like the plague as they can cause small fortunes to be spent on unnessessary fire safety measures.

[Mr. P]

Alonso, are you suggesting that the staff room is off another room? You mention the staff room leading to the main area of the building. The kitchen may then possibly be construed as an 'inner, inner' room - uh - oh!

[alonso]

The main area has at least 4 exits to outside, no afd, low risk

The staff room is off the main area but also has its own exit to outside, no afd

The kitchen is entirely within the staff room and the only exit from the kitchen is through the staff room.the kitchenn has heat afd

I hope that makse sense!

[nearlythere]

The main area has at least 4 exits to outside, no afd, low risk

The staff room is off the main area but also has its own exit to outside, no afd

The kitchen is entirely within the staff room and the only exit from the kitchen is through the staff room.the kitchenn has heat afd

I hope that makse sense!

As there is zone cabling in vicinity it wouldn't be a big job to extend the detection into the staff room, provided it is a Pt1 installation.