Author Topic: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??  (Read 9417 times)

Offline Messy

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It seems obvious to me that when travelling down three floors to a ground floor final exit, you could expect a larger number of persons to move (escape) in a given time compared with a three storey staircase from a basement area, as of course it's tougher going uphill!!

Therefore is there any methodology to calculate a staircase capacity when it is ascending to a final exit and not descending?

Thanks

 

Offline Fire Monkey

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 03:56:07 PM »
What's the width of the final exit at the top (or by) the staircase?

Offline lyledunn

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 06:14:41 PM »
I suffer from a little bit of atrial fibrillation, so if you don't mind Messy, I will give that building a wide berth!
We have a 1200mm stair from the basement in my golf club, around 20 odd treads with an intermediate landing. There was a wee do for our senior team in the basement lounge on Saturday night. I got stuck behind two ole fellas on the stair on the way to the bog on the ground floor. They were puffing and panting and gripping the handrail either side. Had there been a fire they would have moved no faster! Don't like up from basements!

Offline Messy

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 08:05:14 PM »
What's the width of the final exit at the top (or by) the staircase?

In this building, there are 9 protected staircases each rising three floors to their own final exits. Final exit widths range from between 1400 & 1200mm and I am relatively happy that the current occupancy levels are reasonable.

I cannot see in ADB or BS 9999 any difference in determining staircase capacities between those that decend and those that ascend. I know either I have missed what I am looking for, or its within another standard somewhere.

I am unhappy to use the same staircase capacities that I have used for downward travel for what is a pretty tough climb moving up. So am I being thick and have missed something obvious or am I over-thinking this issue?

Offline Fishy

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 08:41:01 PM »
You're right - there's no difference.  Might be because we calculate the capacity required in the stair - not its flow rate?  If it's a protected staircase then (within reason) the length of time people take to traverse it is not critical, provided that it can accommodate the occupancy?  Just guessing...

As an aside, London Underground has loads of deep basements (30 m+), and in its station planning standard it makes no distinction between flow rates going up or down stairs either.

You would not do the same with an ASET/RSET calculation, of course...

Offline Messy

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2017, 07:25:38 PM »
Many thanks Fishy

When you consider travel distances are related to time - as the basis of most escape strategies - and staircase widths are related to capacity which equals flow - I still can't get it out of my head that it would certainly be slower to get the same size group up 3 floors than it would if they were going downstairs. :(


Offline Phoenix

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2017, 01:34:40 AM »
Hi Messy,

It's right that this scenario is inadequately addressed in the standard guides.  I think that it is because very few buildings have significant means of escape going up stairs; usually, at most, people might ascend one level. 

I think you're absolutely right to seek more appropriate guidance and I appreciate that this is hard to come by.  Guidance figures for staircase capacities are based on a combination of flow rates and holding capacity so the significance of a slower flow rate is reduced but it is not negligible.

PD 7974-6 gives some information that could assist:

"Fruin presented a range of values for travel speed on stairs, according to age and sex.  For travel downwards, these ranged from 1.01 m/s for males under 30 years, to 0.595 m/s for females aged over 50.  For travel upwards, they ranged from 0.67 m/s for males under 30, to 0.485 m/s for females over 50. Fruin?s figures are calculated from observations made on two staircases, one with 7 inch risers and 11.25 inch treads, and one with 6 inch risers and 12 inch treads. Travel speeds up and down were faster for the stairs with the smaller rise height.

"Nelson and Mowrer present travel speeds for four different stair designs (of rise height between Metrificate 6.5 and 7.5 inches, and tread between 10 and 13 inches). They give travel speeds ranging from 0.85 m/s to 1.05 m/s, with speed increasing as rise height decreases.  There was no differentiation between upwards and downwards travel, nor were the data broken down by sex and age."


God knows what "Metrificate" means.  I think it's an editor's note telling the drafter to convert the measurements to metric.  Anyway....

The Nelson and Mower stuff is not very useful but Fruin has downward speeds of 0.595m/s to 1.01m/s and upward speeds of 0.485m/s to 0.67m/s.  That's a reduction in speed of around 20% to 33%.  As stated, the capacity is based on holding capacities as well as flow rate.  Without undertaking tests involving hundreds of people we have no firm method of converting these speed reductions to adjusted capacity figures. 

However, applying the 33% reduction to the capacities given in ADB or BS 9999 would certainly err on the side of safety.  This might be too onerous and it might be reasonable to halve this reduction to 16% as flow rate is only one half of the two governing factors.

As for Lyle's two gentlement puffing and panting up the stairs, I would say that there should be a well thought through, implemented and practised protocol for assisting people with reduced mobility.


Offline Messy

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2017, 08:11:18 PM »
Phoenix

Many thanks. Your information has given me a new area to research and a simple Google search has offered much in the way of data - albeit some is rather scientific for my grey matter!!

It is curious that there is not more guidance in ADB or 999. I accept most basements are single level, but in London (and other urban areas of cities) multiple basement levels are not unusual. The risk posed by 100s of people ascending to a final exit are greater than those descending, but has been ignored in most Govt publications (ADB and DCLG guides). Maybe the post Grenfell changes to ADB will see a far more user friendly and wider remit ADB?

I have also research DCLG and FBU websites as I am aware that much research was done re physiological effects/safety for fire crews. Again, post Grenfell, maybe more meaningful research will be completed

Thanks for your help

Offline Karissa

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 09:47:49 AM »
Just to make a note here, you'll find I can go up stairs quicker than I will go down them!

Offline Messy

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 12:54:15 PM »
Just to make a note here, you'll find I can go up stairs quicker than I will go down them!

Congratulations as you must be superhuman :)

I have seen research that suggest going down burns just a third of the energy needed to climb up so most people get less tired and can add some speed to their decent using the 2/3 reserve of energy (subject to individual health and fitness levels of course). 

Offline Fishy

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 03:14:31 PM »
Just as a matter of interest, London Underground has many 'basement' escape stairs, and in their station planning standard (S 1371) they mandate that the capacity of escape staircases is 56 PAX per minute per m width ('level' passageways are 80 PAX/min/m). 

Offline Karissa

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Re: Determining Staircase Flows/Capacities From Deep Basement Areas??
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2017, 09:16:51 AM »
Just to make a note here, you'll find I can go up stairs quicker than I will go down them!

Congratulations as you must be superhuman :)

I have seen research that suggest going down burns just a third of the energy needed to climb up so most people get less tired and can add some speed to their decent using the 2/3 reserve of energy (subject to individual health and fitness levels of course). 

I go down more slowly because I am more cautious about missing a step / falling / tripping :) Though Phoenix's post is very interesting.