A question for the consultants

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Please don't think I'm "having a go" at you, but I have a genuine question.........

If, during the course of one of your inspections/consultations you find an issue which is a direct contravention of legislation, where lives would be in danger in the event of a fire occurring and the matter cannot be resolved immediately, would you inform the fire authority?

What do you do if you feel that until a matter is resolved, part of the premises should be removed from use?

I'm curious as there are comments in another thread which got me thinking, so honest answers would be appreciated.

[AnthonyB]

Depends in which area the problem is!

A tenant is easy as the landlord would either take action themselves either direct or by informing the fire authority as they would be safe from action against themselves

Landlord's area - well thats more difficult. Obviously the attempt would be to get them to take steps themselves to deal with the problem - although 'public interest' can override confidentiality it's not a career enhancing move to get your client in the dock when it's your job to help them avoid that.

Fortunately the people that have FRAs have never been so bad in areas under their control - the types of agent that would normally either doesn't do FRAs or does them in house.

The problem is that the agent is also bound by the ultimate property owner - if a building has been mostly empty for years theres no money, also even if full but of a run down variety (ex-mill, old factory conversions) some agents aren't released funds as the owner is waiting the right time to demolish the site for a new development or sell for development and doesn't wish to spend where possible....

Moral answer - easy. Real world one - not so

[shaunmckeever]

mmm... interesting one this one Baldyman. I suspect I know which thread you are referring to.

Morally, as Anthony suggested, it is a no brainer but when you have client confidentiality to consider then it becomes more complex. Breach of confidentiality could lead to the loss of a major client. That in turn could lead to 30 or so consultants being laid off. Of course when weighed against the potential loss of life then this should not be the balance to consider.

The task is to explain to the client the true position both morally and legally. Give the client some immediate solutions that could temporarily resolve the situation and ensure those who are directly affected are fully aware. In the case of tenants who are directly affected and the problem is a landlord responsibility, then the tenants should already be aware of the problem if they have undertaken their own fire risk assessment correctly! (hrrrmph)

Most landlords in my experience take this sort of issue very seriously and don't want any damage to their reputation, nevermind the potential loss of life. They are likely to spend the money necessary to put right the problem. I would also approach the fire service on an informal basis. Sometimes informal conversations can be quite useful.

[wee brian]

There are other moral maze issues here. Say a fire service inspector visits a building which had previousely been given a clean bill of health by a colleague. There is no change in risk but you find a major problem with the building.

If you flag this problem up the building owner will do his nut and drop your colleague in the brown stuff. Do you back your mate up or do the decent thing and get him and the brigade in big trouble?

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

An inspection only relates to that snapshot of time.

I have been on inspections with a colleague where I have inspected weeks before..... and missed some items. These were flagged up to the owners, who accepted them and remedied them.

If the problem is serious, I don't see how it can be ignored to be honest, and should therefore be addressed.

[wee brian]

Thats the advantage of being an FPO - you never have to commit yourself.

[ian gough]

The decision might be easier for me if I had confidence in the relevant fire authority ie I knew what they would do. One officer's s10 is another's note for file!!

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

The decision might be easier for me if I had confidence in the relevant fire authority ie I knew what they would do. One officer's s10 is another's note for file!!

How true that statement is.

[kurnal]

Baldyman
Never say never, but my answer to your question answer your question, having read it very carefully, is that  there may be little point in informing the fire authority. Why? Because if I am to work for a client there is a contract between us. The client wants to purchase my assistance and advice and I offer my services on the basis that the client will at least take note of and heed my guidance.  If they don't, I get frustrated and walk away. I have done this once this year  ( and not submitted an invoice for the risk assessment ) and advised another client yesterday that if things do not start to change soon I am not prepared for my insurer to carry the risk.

In the old days a section 10 was a last resort and brigades could issue voluntary restriction orders - agreed by both parties and if the client was in breach the fire authority would go straight into S10, with the entry on the public register etc. VROs fell out of favour in the early 90s  following legal advice ( Popplewell I think) but were widely used in their day.

I would agree with the client the necessary restrictions and improvements to reduce the risk. I would advise them of the risks of a failure to adhere to the plan, in terms of life, business continuity, legal etc. So in terms of fire safety enforcement what would be achieved by informing the fire authority?
I would not therefore report one of my clients. I don't think there would be a need. If however as a member of the public in the normal walk of life I encounter dangerous conditions I would not hesitate to report it. I did report one shop 18 months ago. ( I was a customer). Nothing has happened and no changes been made.......

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

I understand your stance Kurnal and a good reply.

I would certainly hope that your clients heed your advice as they are paying for it!

I feel that if you've reported a shop and nothing has nappened, then that is a failing on the Fire Authority as complaints must be investigated and action taken.