Electronic door locking devices - link to the the fire alarm?

[Mr. P]

Conqueror,

Yep did all that.  Just added for interests sake on this thread.

[Wiz]

Thanks Mr P.
I think it is fairly common for electronic keeps, even when intended to fail safe, not to let go. In my experience if there is any maintained pressure on the keep at the same time as the power is disconnected, although the solenoid will release very often the latch which holds the keep closed will stick in position. The pressure may be as a result of someone pushing the door at the same time as the release switch is operated, or by a poorly fitting door where the latch is under constant tension through warping or poor fitting.

I can highly recommend the following product, found by following the link below, to reduce the very common problems identified by Kurnal above;

http://www.cdvuk.com/_htmlpages/firelockpage.htm

It is an expensive bit of kit costing around £250 but It will still function even with 100Kg of side pressure.

This product is distributed by a number of companies including  www.sasss.co.uk Just enter the word FIRELOCK on their site's search facility to find it.

[afterburner]

It would be wrong to discuss the actual methods of operating prison locks, but they can be operated elctronically, they fail in the 'locked' position, and they do not have by-pass switches of any description.

[Parusater]

I was wondering if someone can give me a bit of guidence please and tell me where I can find the relevent info?

I have an office building that is being refurbished and is nearing completion. The building is approximately 65m in length with first and second floors. There are fire exits on all floors sited at each end of the building. The main entrance is at the centre of the building and forms a foyer and protected central stairwell. The main door is a sliding glass door (it defaults to open on activation of the fire alarm system).

Now, given that the maximum travel distance for offices with escape in more than one direction is 45m, should the main door be fitted with a "green box" to over-ride the opening mechanism should it fail to (sod's law) open when the fire alarm is activated? A "green box" was shown on the original set of plans but has since been removed.

Two other buildings have a similar set up but these are fitted with a "green box" to over-ride the door mechanism.

[kurnal]

In an emergency evacuation, most people will try and use the main entrance that they used to enter the building. So even though you may comply with the 45metre guidance using the exits at the ends of the building, there is no doubt that even if signed not to be used in case of fire many people will arrive there in the event of a fire- especially visitors. If they cant get out panic may arise and they may then act irrationally. For this reason the main entrance should also be available in the event of an emergency.

If the door opens on operation of the fire alarm, and will still open on PIR in the event of a power failure( ie it has battery backup),is tested regularly and is not used by large numbers of the public it may be ok without a green box as long as no fault- including an earth fault on the fire alarm -will cause it to fail.   Generally green boxes are also not recommended for licensed premises for obvious rreeaassoonnss!!

For well disciplined staff who know the building well- eg caretakers and  cleaners it can be possible to lock off all but the essential exits backed up by training and procedures.

[Brian Catton]

Can anyone tell me any code that allows a timer to be fitted to an electronic release door.
This is a medium secure mental health establishment with electronic releases that require timers for the staff to react before the inmates.

[kurnal]

Brian
Are you suggesting a green break glass box with a delay between operation and the door unlocking?

If so then this is probably not a suitable solution. The delay would apply at all times and so should a member of staff be first at the door even then a rapid exit may not be possible. It sounds as though a greater level of security is appropriate and apart from keys, electronic card readers, security code locks there is quite a lot of biometric based security equipment coming on the market, some of which may be suitable for exit doors in secure units where staff will always be required to supervise evacuation and security in an emergency. Better to avoid keys and cards if possible due to the staff becoming a target to obtain the key.

If I have misinterpreted your question then please accept my apology.

[Wiz]

Kurnal,
My guess is that Brian means that there is a timed delay before electromagnetically locked doors release on a fire alarm condition, so the staff have a bit of time to prevent unauthorised people leaving. In these circumstances there is probably no green call point anyway. My guess is Brian wants to know if there are any written recommendations in respect of the set-up he is questioning.

In respect of biometric being more secure than cards or prox. tokens, what if someone chopped off a finger or gouged the eye out of an authorised person? I've seen in done in sci-fi films so it's only a matter of time before it happens in real life! (I think it is probably this method Lucky uses to enable his wanderings around this home for the slightly bewildered we all inhabit so frequently!)

[Brian Catton]

Thanks for your replies chaps. I actually mean a timed delay before an electronic keep that is linked to the fire alarm system unlocks the door when the fire alarm actuates.

[kurnal]

Brian
How can you be sure that the staff will be in position before the timed delay expires? If I recollect a variation on this approach was discussed in the early IFE document by Graham Shiel - I an sure you have seen this Brian but if you have not email me and I could photocopy and post to you.

Wiz- get your finger out.

[Wiz]

Wiz- get your finger out.

Kurnal - I'll have to keep an eye out for you if you are keeping tabs on me

[nearlythere]

Clearly there are situations where there has to be an element of security in some types of premises with a need to control ingress and egress but still providing a level of freedom of movement and independance within. The provision of electronic locking on final exit doors is probably the only reasonable way of doing so but this tends to be completely nullified by the placing of a green box beside it available to all.
These types of secure premises which prefers freedom of movement within the building are an alternative to incarceration in locked cells.
A risk assessment would take these special circumstances into consideration and the usual requirement for a manual override, I believe, could be dispensed with in this case.
A risk assessment is just a means of preventing the exposure of persons to risk taking the circumstances of the environment into consideration.