Author Topic: Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts  (Read 9086 times)

Offline kurnal

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« on: July 02, 2007, 05:47:24 PM »
Please can anybody advise me on suitable fire stopping in large industrial cable ducts - I have found a network of underground ducts about 1.5m deep and 1- to 1.5m wide linking a large number of buildings and installations on an industrial plant. Each duct contains from 10- 30 large 50mm diameter 11kv/ 3.3kv cables dropped in rather random - bit like a nest of vipers. The insurers  want to install sprinklers in the duct because of the fire risk and potential fire spread issues - pvc insulation. I see mega problems with this- confined spaces, testing, freezing, maintenance etc.
I would rather find a solution involving the creation of fire breaks coupled with ventilation openings. The ducts penetrate walls of the buildings so in any case need fire stopping here.   I have looked at conventional mineral fibre foil lined fire barriers- say 2 hours integrity, 1hr insulation,  but have a problem around and beneath the cables where supports and sealing would be difficult, also the need to protect each cable for a length either side of the barrier.  As the plant is just to start a long term refurbishment there will be a need to drop in additional cables and pull some out over the next few years. The cables all are loaded to run cool so the additional thermal insulation should not be an issue.

I was wondering about using conventional mineral fibre based barriers to act as a dam wall supporting a depth  of vermiculite chips - does anyone have experience of any this type of problem and any suggested solutions?

Offline John Webb

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2007, 07:36:41 PM »
Kurnal,
I'm sure I've seen adverts in electrical journals in the past for fire-stopping for cable ducts. These were a frame into which blocks could be slipped, some with various cutouts for different sized cables, some solid to fill in where there were not cables. No names come across my memory at the moment.
More recently I've seen mention of sleeves and other blocking items made by Aico Ltd. under the trade name of "Firecap" - this is the same Aico who sell domestic detectors - try www.aico.co.uk

There are also intumescent 'pillows' for blocking smaller ducts - see for example part no 423 6124 on rswww.com (the RS Components website).

Hope the above is of help.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline kurnal

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2007, 09:31:50 PM »
Very much obliged as always
Thanks John

Offline Ashley Wood

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2007, 09:37:39 AM »
Kurnal, Two companies that I have used in the past on projects have been 'HAWKE' and LYCAB' these are called transit block systems. However, they are great for new installations but not really suitable for existing due to the congestion, etc. I have seen 'CAPE DURASTEEL' used in existing tunnels. Worth looking at. The other alternative, and I know you do not want to go down this route, is a high pressure water mist system. FOGTEC, HI-Fog and 'Hydramist are three systems that spring to mind. I have seen these used in power stations and for the National Grid.

Offline wee brian

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 07:47:46 PM »
I'd like to see how somebody would maintain aspribkler system in a duct of that size. Are tyco employing umpa loompas?

Offline kurnal

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2007, 09:07:05 PM »
Wee B
Are those  technical terms? Can I slip them into  one of my risk assessments and if I did would the FSO be impressed? I do like to keep up to date with new techniques you know.

aspribkler is a good descriptive term for what I tend to experience  on my nocturnal visits to the bathroom these days.

Offline Ashley Wood

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2007, 09:22:22 AM »
WB. Very funny. I don't think I mentioned TYCO. But as you did, let me clarify something. TYCO are an installer and make nothing, nowt, nada. The names I mentioned are manufacturers and I am sure they will have a long list of distributors to choose from. Good point though about the size of a maintenance engineer :  )

Offline Advanced Smoke Technology

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2007, 12:24:49 PM »
Not really a solution to your problem but something for the future to bear in mind

     www.hi-protect.com

Offline wee brian

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2007, 02:49:38 PM »
Tyco Engineered Products & Services is the world’s largest manufacturer of industrial valves
and controls, as well as a leading producer of steel tubing, electrical raceway products, fire sprinklers, specialty valves, fittings and couplings used in fire protection systems.

http://www.tyco.com/WWW/Documents/pdf/TycoCorp_AtAGlance_020907.pdf

No mention of umpa lumpas or aspribkler, shome mishtake shurely?

Offline Ashley Wood

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2007, 04:45:41 PM »
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Tyco safety systems or is it solutions or is it...... I am not sure now what the fire side that used to be called Wormald are these days.

Offline wee brian

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2007, 08:11:47 PM »
Yes you should have been, this kind of slap dash attitude puts lives at risk.............. I'll let you off this time!

Graeme

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2007, 12:34:49 PM »
Quote from: Ashley Wood
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Tyco safety systems or is it solutions or is it...... I am not sure now what the fire side that used to be called Wormald are these days.
still Wormald

Offline Ashley Wood

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2007, 09:55:32 AM »
Sorry, they are not Wormald but TYCO something something something springs to mind.

Offline Fishy

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Creating fire breaks in very large cable ducts
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2007, 10:24:30 AM »
The cable sheathing will soften and melt in a fire - so if you want to seal around the cables you will need something that will expand to fill the gaps.  A big factor is the depth of the seal - much easier to get an effective seal in a thick wall than a thin one, for example.  

Intumescent pillows are OK if the seal is deep and there are no big gaps between the cables, but they don't expand a lot, so they're not much good if you've got a whopping great pile of 50mm cables.  The only thing that I know of that would have a chance, in that case, would be one of the high-expansion systems, such a Sealmaster's 'Firefoam'; Intumescent Seals' 'Therm-A-Foam', or Environmental Seals might have a product that would do it (any company that sells an intumescent cat flap obviously has an apetite for the weird and wonderful).  The key is to demand that they can assure you that their products would work, in the situation you have.  If it's a very demanding application, they might need to do some fire testing to back this up.

I'd steer away from the high-expansion foams that are applied from an aerosol can - they often have claims for high fire resistance, but if you investigate they've usually only been tested sealing relatively small holes in thick, inert walls.  I'm not aware of any that have solid evidence that they work where cables transit walls or floors.