Realistic training

[chris7]

Hi,

Trying to find out which Brigades train in empty/disused buildings as training venues for BA drills. Especially with real fire.

I have been discussing  advantages this training has, with a high up and powerful civilian within our Brigade who thinks it is unacceptable because it would lead to injuries. My arguement, better a few minor injuries in a controlled but realistic environment than a death at an incident due to lack of experience.

Would be grateful of any info and your views.

Chris

[pugh]

To my knowledge - NONE!

And for good reason.  The use of derelict/disused property for training runs totally contrary to all the work that has been done over the years in obtaining quality training facilities for firefighters.  These provide controlled environments where exercises can be repeated providing the exact same conditions for the various groups requiring training, altered to meet the changing needs of modern fire services and able to provide data-logging in the more advanced units so that exercises and training can be audited.

Can you imagine the liability circus that would arrive on any CFO's doorstep if someone was injured as a result of training in any derelict/disused premises?  The local authority, the brigade, the owwner of the property, their agents, first and second cousins and their first-born - all held liable in some way.  Insurance companies wouldn't touch it with the mucky end of a very long stick!

That all presupposes any risk assessment would not place prohibitive restrictions on activities and call for control measures that would render any such training virtually worthless.

Sorry Chris.  Back to the drawing board for that one.

[mac999]

Strathclyde has been carrying out Realistic Training since 2005. They identified the need to get away from the safe but false environment of drill towers and work out in the community in buildings in which they'd be likely to actually fight fires. There's still centralised training at the training centre but stations have a level of autonomy to work off station. The target is one realistic exercise per month although that's not always possible. All buildings and exercises are fully risk assessed and disclaimers produced by legal. It's been very successful and there have been no safety events. In Glasgow, in particular, they have progressed using real smoke from straw bales and that gives an added element of realism. The most important part of this is that the rep bodies fully support the process.

[wee brian]

http://www.24dash.com/news/Communities/2008-02-26-Empty-homes-provide-training-opportunity-for-firefighters

This is a great idea. I'm no firefighter but I've been involved in a few incidents where things have gone wrong on fire scenes. Running ladders up towers and fighting fires in ISO containers is not good enough.

[kurnal]

Interesting link.

 I quote "Councillor Chris Ryder, cabinet member for quality of life " How do you get a job like that? I wouldn't mind improving my quality of life.

Pugh I think you worry too much. Why should realistic training in a disused or derelict building be any more of a problem from a liability viewpoint  than an exercise at any other local risk? People start going over the top thinking because its unoccupied you can set it on fire for fun. Thats not what its all about. There should be no reason why unoccupied or derelict buildings cannot be used for  training provided realistic objectives are set and risks adequately controlled.

Of course you cannot start an uncontrolled fire and say here guys put this out.  That would be just another incident not  training.

[Tom Sutton]

Merseyside did use derelict buildings for training years ago until a recruit died in a fire. I am not sure if it stopped using them but very strict procedures were adopted through out the training school. I can find out if you wish.