Escape stairs

[The Colonel]

I have a friend who has been looking at an 8 storey office building which is occupied on all floors by the same company, has a central stairs with an alternate escape stairs. The concern he has is that once anyone enters the escape stair they cannot re-enter any of the floors and have to make thier way to the final exit on ground floor. AFD is fitted with simultanous evacuation of all floors. Some if not all of the doors onto the escape stairs have lobby protection.

My friends concern is that if anything such as fire or more likly smoke should enter the escape stirs then those on the stairs have no option but to carry on down to ground through possible smoke and cannot go back onto one of the floors to escape via main stairs.

Would be grateful for the forums views, should access be possible from the escape stairs into the floors?

[FORRIE]

On a simultanous evacuation of all floors it would be difficult  to re-enter other floors if staff are also using them to escape. The fire strategy of the building should be conveyed to all occupants and practised to ensure everyone is conversant with how to proceed during a fire alarm. As your friend is not sure what to do, then it may be time to discuss his fears with management.

[slubberdegullion]

To add to FORRIE's comments, these are the principles of means of escape appropriate for the building you're talking about:

1. Everyone in the building should have access to both stairs without having to pass through any one of the staircases
2. Both stairs should have lobby protection at all levels (possibly not the top storey)
3. A lobby protected stair will not be affected by a fire in the building (at least, not within the time it takes to evacuate the building)
4. Therefore, there is no threat to anyone once they are in a stairway
5. Once someone is in a stairway they should not have to re-enter the accommodation but should continue to the final exit that serves that stair

If there is some reason why a stair may be affected by fire or smoke, such as the lack of a lobby, then this should be addressed.  

Is your friend doing the risk assessment?  If so I think FORRIE hit the nail on the head with his last comment.

Stu

[Dinnertime Dave]

There is only one big problem with this.

The poor old inspecting officer carrying out an audit who gets locked in the stairs and can`t get out.

Never happened to me though!!

[Ken Taylor]

As there is no requirement to enable re-entry from the escape stair, this sort of issue tends to emphasise the need to prevent doors to lobbies and stairways from being wedged open eg for convenience or aditional ventilation), keeping stairways free of combustibles and the value of knowing where the fire is (eg addressable alarm systems). It seems to me that, in this particular case there is a need to consider within the risk assessment whether there is a significant risk of fire/smoke (or indeed other hazard) within the stairway and, if so, what are the control measures - which could include additional lobbies, door alarms, further instructions to staff, etc. That said, it can be useful in normal circumstances to be able to get back into the main building from the stairway when the door closes behind you. I've found the same sort of problem with store rooms, electrical intake rooms, boiler rooms, cellars, etc in new buildings where they have designed for a handle on one side of the door only or for key only operation and a self-closer.

[PhilB]

I am surprised that no-one is concerned with this set up. A few of you may of heard of a fire that occurred in 1980 at the MGM Grand Hotel in Las Vages. 85 people were killed and hundreds were injured.

One of the problems was that people were trapped within the stairways....here is a quote from the report..

"Another problem you won't see today is that the doors to the smoky stairwells at the MGM automatically locked behind people as they entered. If they couldn't breathe in the stairwell, they couldn't get back out. They could only exit at the bottom floor, King said. "

Now I know that you shouldn't need to re-enter the building from the stairway...........but what if you do?.

[slubberdegullion]

Yeah, that's a good point Phil.  This sort of situation is probably most often found on externals and re-inforces the need for fr protection to those stairs.  But it's reasonably common on internal stairs too.  Might I suggest that if this is the situation in the stairs then it should be absolutely ensured that the staircase cannot be affected by fire or smoke.  (That, or change the locks!)

Stu

[kurnal]

But Phil in the real word of multi occupied buildings it would not be acceptable for reasons of security.
We work on the basis  that the protected route is by definition a place of relative safety from fire and all our focus should be on maintaining it as such.
I agree with stu about externals though.

[PhilB]

Yes fair point Kurnal, I am just surprised that no-one could see the potential problems.

[Tom Sutton]

Yes fair point Kurnal, I am just surprised that no-one could see the potential problems.

The Colonel's friend saw the potential problems, I assume thats why the question was asked.

[The Colonel]

Gentlemen

Thanks for your views with which agree with many. My friend can see some problems and is not to happy with not being able to get back into a floor if absoluly essential. Will be having a chat with him in the next couple of days when hopefully I can get a look at some plans including the old fire cert. the building is currently occupied by the same organisation so re- entry should not be a problem.

One thougt does spring to mind, would access encrouage some people to venture onto a fire floor to have a go or to get into a familier area, you know what us human beings are like.

keep up the good work, I learn more from this forum every day and is a very usefull sounding board

[Big A]

There is only one big problem with this.

The poor old inspecting officer carrying out an audit who gets locked in the stairs and can`t get out.

Never happened to me though!!

Happy days (sigh)


and =)