Author Topic: point me in right direction  (Read 6409 times)

Offline skcmc

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« on: December 29, 2007, 10:20:03 PM »
Hi All,

I have recently taken over to manage the block of flats i live in. I know we have a lot of catching up to do and I am prepared for any work and reasonable expense involved to bring us up to a level of compliance.
However, it is no wonder my predecessors didnt make a start with any fire safety etc as there seems endless amounts of legislation.
I am not even sure which legislation covers us or where to find any of it. So if anyone can point me where to find it (Had a look on here but not directly finding what im after). Google brings up endless stuff which i dont know if it covers us.

So im after assistance on where to find out what we need regarding the following info, and if we even need them or not :-

1) Fire Extinguishers in communal area (landing)
2) Emergency Lighting in communal area (landing)
3) Smoke Alarms in communal area (landing)

FYI - we are 2 small blocks of flats. Each block has ground floor and first floor. each floor has 4 self contained flats with own entrance leading onto a communal landing.
Flats were built in 1982 and is self managed by a ltd company for which is run by ourselves the residents and also the freeholders.
The company has only 3 directors/employees who are unpaid volunteers.

I really want to make the place fall in line and have just started to look at fire risk assesments etc, but i dont know if something is suitable/complies as i dont know of any legislation etc.


Grateful for any assistance to what actually covers us.

Chris

Offline slubberdegullion

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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2007, 11:50:28 AM »
Just briefly, the legislation for fire is not that complicated.  The Fire Safety Order (sometimes referred to as the RRO) covers only the communal areas in your block and so you must have a fire risk assessment for these areas.  Because there aren't sufficient employees (5) there is no requirement for the risk assessment to be recorded in writing, though it is always a good idea to record your findings anyway.

If your block was purpose built in 1982 the it is very probable that it is built to such a standard that fire will not spread from one flat to another.  If it is built to this 'flats' standard then the block is not a 'house in multiple occupation' (HMO) and Environmental Health (through the Housing Act) need not be involved.

If the block is a converted house and the conversion was not to the building regs standard for flats then it will be considered an HMO and you should contact Environmental Health at your local council.

Anyway, it is probably safe to assume that in your case this is a purpose built block.  So what do you have to do?

Certainly try to conduct the risk assessment yourself, you can get guidance here

http://www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw/

There are downloadable guidance documents and there is a downloadable fire risk assessment form which is very brief and hardly adequate for most places, but for you I think it will be sufficient.

It isn't that complicated - just use your common sense and think about each of the areas I mention below in turn to make sure that you've done every reasonable thing that you can to minimise the risk from a fire.

Your findings are likely to be along these lines (remember this is only for the common areas):

Means of escape - satisfactory provided all flats still have fire doors as their front doors (e.g. none have been changed for plastic doors).  Any ventilation that was provided in the past, such as openable windows, should still be in place.  Doors should be openable from the inside without the need to go hunting for a key.

Fire alarm - satisfactory.  No requirement for one in the common areas.  Note, that each flat should have a self contained smoke detector inside it to alert occupants of that flat only (i.e. it doesn't need linking to the other flats in the block)

Emergency lighting - it would be very sensible to ensure that, if the power fails, there is sufficient light on any stairs or steps and at doors to ensure that people can safely find their way out the building.  If you have no emergency lighting, is there sufficient borrowed lighting coming from a lampost outside the window?  If not then a couple of carefully placed emergency lighting units should cover the risk.  Even there is a bright lampost outside the window you should consider fitting them anyway, to cover a widespread power cut.

Fire extinguishers - no requirement for them in the common areas unless you have any specific fire risks within those areas you want to protect.

Signs - no requirement.

Maintenance and testing - look after what you have in place.

Changes - if there are changes to the property review the risk assessment.

While you're doing all this, don't forget to keep on top of any health and safety shorfalls as well - look for damaged carpets and at the adequacy of guard rails and bannisters, etc.  Again, common sense stuff.

Have fun

Stu

Offline skcmc

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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2007, 07:12:06 PM »
Stu,

Thats a very comprehensive guide and i thank you for the time taken to reply - much appreciated.

Yes we are a specially purpose built blocks of flats, and as such you mention we should not need to have any further items.
Your also right about borrowed light. Theres a chance that some borrowed light from lampposts give off light throught the windows on the stairwell. However, i think some emergency lighting is a good idea, along with an extinguisher and fire blanket per block and i am looking into that now. I also appreciate that we need to keep these tested and maintained which we will do.

Once again appreciate your assistance on this, which clarifies all matters.

Regards,

Chris.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2007, 07:44:34 PM »
Quote from: skcmc
I really want to make the place fall in line and have just started to look at fire risk assesments etc, but i dont know if something is suitable/complies as i dont know of any legislation etc.

Chris
Stu just about sums this up...but be careful.

If built in 1982 it may be an HMO, whether it is an HMO or not the Housing Act applies but the houing authority are unlikely to get involved unless they are made aware of a certain category of hazard.

The Fire Safety Order definately applies and requires a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment of the common parts.

What concerns me is that you say you don't know if the risk assessment is suitable...

.........not wishing to offend you must, for your own peace of mind, question your competence in this area.

We have discussed on this forum recently a case where persons were placed at serious risk in a similar situation to which you describe because no-one had identified failings....they could have been prosecuted.

For example in your building are the front doors to the flats fire resisting and self-closing???.....do they need to be???? is there any glazing between the flats and the common escape route????....if so is it fire resisting and fixed shut???....does it need to be????

It would take someone with a certain level of competence to assess the building and make those decisions...and others.

I would be happy to offer my opinion if you can e-mail further details.

Offline skcmc

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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2007, 10:43:27 PM »
PhilB.

Thanks your guidance. Yes i appreciate i may not be fully competent and we may end up seeking further advice, but at this stage as nothing has been done for last 25 years, we are now just making a start. At least we are starting to seek guidance etc and trying to get in line......

Anyway your further comment would be greatly appreciated......ill try to descibe set up as best as possible.....

Purpose built block as mentioned.
All 4 flats on each of the 2 levels have their own front doors which i believe are wooden fire doors with their own self closing mechanisms. These doors lead out onto a tiny landing ( say 4 metres x 4 metres ). The landings then leads directly outside.
No additional interior doors or glazing are present.
The landings themselves do have external windows.


When i say not sure if suitable, i mean i am not sure what the requirements are so unable to determine if we reach these or not. On a common sense note i would like to think i could risk assess certain items on a "common sense" approach but not sure if this is enough ??
For instance my previous background was working on oil and gas tankers at sea, and during this time have attended a few hands on fire courses and was also qualified as shipboard safety officer.
This by no means qualifies me for anything ashore, especially as i have no knowledge of shore requirements as mentioned, but i have what i feel that i may be able to provide a common sense approach - BUT is this enough ? On the basis of stu's answer that there is very little requirements for us (provided we are not a HMO) do i really need to be knowledgeable in all the regulations to carry out a RA ??
Or does the law say a RA should be a "common sense" approach so to speak ?

If not, what sort of cost are we looking at for someone to do a RA for us ??


Once again, thanks for help, this forum has started to prove invaluable.

Chris.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 09:02:43 AM »
Hi Chris

From what you describe it appears you have little to assess and may well be competent to carry out the risk assessment yourself.

As a first step I would repeat Stus advice to have a look at the guidance documents published by CLG...the sleeping premises guide is the one for you.

If you can read that guide, and understand it in relation to your premises you should be ok.

Since this new legislation was introduced a number of 'fire safety consultants' have suddenly emerged but take care if you chose to appoint one as many are not at all competent!

From your description the integrety of the protected route (staicase) could only be compromised by the doors opening onto it.

The doors should be self-closing but that is a difficult thing to manage when individual occupiers carry out DIY tasks.

If you require any further advice contact me by e-mail and would be happy to assist.

Offline skcmc

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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007, 10:00:16 AM »
Thanks Phil.

Yes have just saved a copy of the CLG sleeping premises and reading through it does indeed provide much guidance on the topics.

Once again, thanks for all your help and information.

Kind Regards.

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2007, 12:21:12 PM »
Very little to add to the excellent advice offered by Stu and Phil.
I would just add that the Building Regulations ( which you dont need to worry yourself over)  have always allowed for windows to be considered as a potential fire exit frm houses and flats with a top floor level below 4.5m- ie most two storey blocks. If you can open a window and lower yourself out ( the window has to be at least 450mm in size and be easily openable) then you can be a little more relaxed about the common areas and landings. If the windows are not an option then you need to take particular care that the common areas are kept free of any  fire risks.
In any case - motorbikes, lawnmowers, armchairs etc and refuse should not be stored in the common areas .

Offline FORRIE

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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 11:25:54 PM »
skcmc,
you have been given good advice, this is the best fire related forum,with members of a high degree of knowledge. My only other additional comments would be to incorporate fire exit signage with the escape lighting, and to display a fire routine procedure in the communal area details of assembly point, although it is appreciated you could be safer staying in your flat [many do not] calling the Fire Service ect, although there is no need for a fire alarm within the communal areas, a resident may hear a fire alarm operating in one of the flats, which should be connected to the main electricity supply with a battery back-up, do not forget hot & cold smoke seals for the flat entrance doors, and if there are any letter boxes within the dcors they will be required to be fire-resistant. I also think that having a notice in the staircase enclosure indicating NO STORAGE OF ANY KIND is sensible.