Stair Lobbies in flats.

[Tom Sutton]

In a sixties built block of flats, if there are more than 3 floors above ground level, must there be a stair lobby on that floor / every floor? What if there is not and it is not possible to install stair lobbies - must smoke vents be installed?

[PhilB]

Presumably we're talking single stairs. Why was the lobby recommended in the 60s??

Why would current Building Regs not require lobbys in the situation you describe??  

Sorry to answer questions with questions TW but another post has baffled me..it has been suggested that to risk assess, all you need to do is read a guide and see if the building fits the book.

Perhaps Creaking Jim can answer this one for all of us?

[kurnal]

TW- do you have any more information about the design and layout of the flats, whether they have fire resisting enrance doors, whether at each floor level there is a common landing with a fire door to the stairs, how far it is from the flat doors to the door to the staircase, whether there are any opening vents or windows in the stairs?

Happy to discuss by phone if you have any more info.

[PhilB]

Yes sorry TW I wasn't being mischievous .....well maybe just a little.

I am trying to make the point that many buildings do not fit neatly into guidance documents...hence the need for competent assessors.

I'm sure Kurnal will sort it for you.....he does desk based risk assessments for free...and he knows what he's talking about......see the "Is my dream shattered" post....that Kurnal blokey must be loaded!!!

[Tom Sutton]

Phil - I am quoting a situation that exists the flat front door opens on to a landing in a single staircase. However the landing is to small to create a lobby. The reason why is anybodys guess maybe CP1,2 or 3. (I am not sure which one)

Kurnal -  I will find out about the passive protection and ventlation.

I have seen this type of layout in two storey blocks of flats but any higher there has always been a lobby approach.

[Tom Sutton]

Further information I have obtained. My question followed by response

1. Are we talking about a single staircase situation? - Single staircase.
2. Are the doors from the flats FRSC 30mins or 60 mins? - Not sure at the moment, but I think 30 mins.
3. Are there any windows in the staircase that can be opened? - Yes, openable windows (at ceiling level) on each floor to the staircase.
4. How many flats on each floor? - 2 flats.
5. How many floors? - 4 inc. ground.
6. Has the inside of the flats been checked to see if a FR lobby has been created in the flats? - The flats do not have a lobby inside
7. Are the flats self-contained purpose built or have they been converted? - Self-contained purpose built.

Checkout a rough sketch http://www.firesafe.org.uk/assets/docs/layout.pdf

[kurnal]

Hi TW
There are thousands of buildings like this and many much worse.

My memory of the codes of practice is hazy but I think prior to CP3 chapter 4 in 1971 there was a section of the Public Health Act 1936? that covered means of escape from flats with a floor height above 20ft??? I think it just required an alternate means of escape and led to lots of those rusty old vertical ladders you see in converted mansions.

From a desk top view only in practical terms I think that in  this place we need to look at an evacuation strategy of one out all out because there could be risk to other occupiers in the event of a fire in a flat, with only a single door protection to the stairs and no protected flat lobbies.

I would suggest FD30S SC  doors to flats, L2 system covering staircase with DS in stairs and DH in flats together with their own standalone detector to LD3. If the L2 system can be linked to the vents in the staircase top and bottom I think this may also be an advantage- though conversely it could draw smoke from a fire in a flat into the stairs. Would need to take a longer look at that. Plus a information session for the residents as to the whys and wherefores.

Any higher or bigger  though and we need to also  add firefighter access and safety into the equation.

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks Kurnal, understandable those COP’s long time ago, I remember being involved with a 14 storey office block, single staircase, built to CP3 it was a nightmare.

As for your overview of this situation I agree 100%.

I think ventilation is necessary and to counteract smoke being drawn into the staircase, a mechanical system could be installed inputting fresh air as opposed to extraction. However as the occupancy of the building is likely to be less than 40 persons and the staircase should be cleared in about a minute then I feel it would be OTT but I feel installing automatic ventilation could be considered reasonable.