Author Topic: NICEIC can i install a grade A system.  (Read 12157 times)

Offline cecil

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NICEIC can i install a grade A system.
« on: April 22, 2008, 07:48:03 PM »
hi..

i am new to the forum, so here we go!!!!

I am a NICEIC Part P competant person, and have been asked to install a Grade A LD2 level detection/alarm system in a three story house that has a shared kitchen on the ground floor and seperate bedrooms on each floor for students.
I know the owner, but do not usually fit fire alarms, i have fitted fire alarm systems into shops when i was shopfitting, and felt that i could do this.
However I can not find any information on grade A systems and have noticed that my NICEIC certificates only have Grade B and downwards on them!!
Is a grade A system a specialist job, and am i better off turning the job down, or getting someone to certificate it for me.
I have a design drawing for a typical house fire alarm system layout from the local council, can i follow this or do i need it to be designed?

sorry for the long winded question, but i can not find the answers that i require.

PS. the drawings from the council do not show call points!?

steve.

Offline AnthonyB

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NICEIC can i install a grade A system.
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 10:37:16 PM »
If Grade A system is specified it requires the use of a system & equipment broadly to BS 5839-1, the 'commercial' standard, with corresponding devices, power supplies, control panels and fire resistant cabling etc.

When using Part 1 equipment to meet a Part 6 (residential) Grade A system requirement you just interchange certain recommendations between the two standards - A table in BS 5839-6 explains more clearly.

The drawings from the council reflect a lower category and grade of system - some residential situations only require linked smoke/heat alarms, others require linked smoke/heat alarms, call points and 'mini' control panel.

If you are going to do fire alarms works then you need to have and be familiar with the two main British Standards - BS 5839 Part 1 2002 & BS 5839 Part 6 2004 or at the very least the free comprehensive design guides (that reproduce the key elements of the standards) from the major manufacturers (such as Gent who do some good free guides for alarms & emergency lighting). A few PDF's from Screwfix and the odd diagram won't do.

Every installation has to be designed by scratch - a generic drawing is not enough - the complexity of the premises and required category will affect  how involved a design process is and some install designs are quite straightforward, others anything but.

The problem with fire alarm systems is for anything other than the lower categories of Part 6 system to be competently & correctly installed specialist training & knowledge is required for correct specification, design & installation.

I wouldn't expect a fire alarm engineer to automatically be competent to rewire a building, nor would I expect an electrician to automatically be competent to specify & install a Part 1 or higher grade & category Part 6 fire alarm system
Anthony Buck
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Offline cecil

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NICEIC can i install a grade A system.
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 11:37:14 PM »
thanks for your reply.

i guess that as grade A is achieved using comercial standard equipment and practises, that is why it would not be covered under a domestic niceic scheme!
Why then are commercial standards used in a domestic situation? is it to give better protection or because it is HMO property?
Also what are the principal differences? is it mainly the standard of equipment used?

I am always willing to listen to advice and learn new things.

steve.

Offline John@EPL

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NICEIC can i install a grade A system.
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2008, 12:29:33 AM »
I am an NICEIC approved contractor, HMO developer and HMO Landlord. You may find that your limits on the domestic installer scheme have been reached on this type of alarm system. The NICEIC domestic installer certificates are not available for this category of system. Looking on the NICEIC website specimen paperwork section there are no fire alarm installation certificates for domestic installer, these are only provided to Approved contractors on red paperwork.

HMOs are an anomaly, they are domestic properties with commercial features, such as CAt A alarms and emergency lighting etc. So they are domestic but only on the house wiring itself everything else is classed as commercial by the NICEIC.

Generally 2 floor student HMOs are mains interlinked LD2 whilst 3 floor properties are full cat A fire system. Full fire systems are not as straight forward as you might imagine. It still all wiring and codes of practice, but you cannot account for knowledge of where to place alarms to avoid false alarms or even what make of equipment will give you less false alarms.

I am an electrician that tests alarms (and fits them) I see many alarms that have been fitted by electricians that are not quite right as it isn't their main type of work. The nuts and bolts of fitting them are there but they miss out things or don't fit them quite right as they don't know the regs and a badly fitted fire alarm can give false alarm headaches like no other for the landlord. I have been to some HMO houses that the alarm has been going off 5 times a week!


As Anthony said you need to fully absorb Pt1& Pt6 of BS5839 to get up to speed. Then read as much technical advise as you can from this forum and other sources. Like everything it is absorbing all of the detail that matters.

You need to check with the NICEIC first though if you decide to crack on, just to make sure you have the defined capability on the domestic installer scheme, as all councils require full alarm installation documentation, which they will expect to be on NICEIC paperwork.

As for the council drawings not showing call points they should. Never been to one yet that hasn't!! What may be happening is that until the enforcement of the latest HMo housing act a year or so ago most councils didn't  have an active HMO policy. Most council enviroment depts are not prepared or up to speed with the legislation and are vastly understaffed and underqualified for  the job. I work in swansea, where HMO has been heavily enforced for 20+ years. Council is precise with everything. Cardiff who had no previous enforced policy on the other hand is a shambles and have no clue and admit it! what installers have to be careful of is fitting substandard fire systems, firedoors etc to properties looked after by learning councils, because in 5 years time when they are reinspected and they are more up to speed it will be rip put time. I have seen it happen!

Hope this helps.

Chris Houston

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NICEIC can i install a grade A system.
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2008, 01:32:42 AM »
David Rooney said:

Steve


section 7 ...pt 6

Grade A

A fire detection and fire alarm system, which incorporates control and indicating
equipment conforming to BS EN 54-2, and power supply equipment conforming to
BS EN 54-4, and which is designed and installed in accordance with all the
recommendations of sections 1 to 4 inclusive of BS 5839-1:2002, except those in the
following clauses, for which the corresponding clauses of this part of BS 5839 should be
substituted...... etc etc

Not being funny but the fact you don't seem to be aware of the basics would suggest that you don't really have the knowledge or the competence to design the job.

Far safer get a firm to supply and commission, let them design it and save yourself the worry...

Dave

Chris Houston

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NICEIC can i install a grade A system.
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2008, 01:33:10 AM »
Cecil,

Please don't post duplicate threads, it only get's confusing and makes my job difficult.  I have deleted the other one.

Offline cecil

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NICEIC can i install a grade A system.
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2008, 09:20:22 AM »
thank you all.

Offline cecil

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NICEIC can i install a grade A system.
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2008, 10:25:30 AM »
hi all.......

I have checked with the NICEIC, i am able to fit up to grade D alarm LD2 systems within my scope.

cheers.